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Firmament in genisis

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Steve, Apr 8, 2005.

  1. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    Taken from another thread. http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8004
    In regards to "firmament"

    http://www.apologeticspress.org/modules.php?name=Read&itemid=2168&cat=12


    In regards to long ages. You may find this interesting.
    http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v20/i4/years.asp
     
  2. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    I looked at your AIG reference.
    The little "tidbit" has only a general bibliography - no specific reference.
    A newspaper article and weekly magazine are not peer reviwed - so don't bother with them for what I'm asking you to do. Please note what statements in the your referenced article come from which scientific article.
    Which of the sources talk about fruit flies
    Which of the sources talk about the harmful mutations accumulating at higher rates
    Which of the sources talk about the Curse on all creation recorded in Genesis chapter 3. (awfulness of sin in the sight of a holy God)
    Which of the sources talk about the evidence related to aging that suggests that the apparent upper limit on today’s average lifespans is not something that is ‘biologically inevitable’ as such for humans or other multi-celled creatures.

    I am so tired of those that swallow AIG without critical thought that I insist that you do it. I insist that, for any credibility to be given to your references from AIG, that you provide the material missing from AIG articles.
     
  3. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    In regards to "firmament". Your author does not take the time to explain the presence of water above and below the earth. He does not harmonize Satan's invitation for Jesus to view the fourconers of the earth And I belive there is a mention of the "pillars of the earth" in the bible - what's that?
     
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  4. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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  5. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    You forgot waters

    Robert Turkel is the author from tectonics and writes under the name of James Holding. In regard to pillars - an admission by Turkel
    and for this he concludes that that there is no proof of a flat cosmology :biglaugh: He makes the same conclusion (I think word for word) in regard to your offer of an explanation of corners :biglaugh:

    But none of this answers the first question I asked and does not forefill the insistence to supply the missing material from the AIG article you referenced. But if you are willing to forego the use of AIG - never mind
     
  6. angellous_evangellous

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    Flat cosmology is in the Bible. To deny it is to project modern science on a text that explicitly says that the earth is flat. The Bible is not a science book but a theologial reflection. Sheeesh
     
  7. Reverend Jeremiah

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    Steve, I know that your intentions are good, but have you really thought through your "mistranslation" excuse (and you will see why I call it an excuse in a second)

    Creationists, especially the ones at answers in genesis.com (yes I've been there many times, I like their comics) tend to use the "mistranslated" excuse frequently for things that appear to contradict their message- that the bible is scientific.
    Now you honestly beleive, and want me to beleive, that this "Yahweh" of yours not only created all things in this universe, and he knows all things past-present-future...yet he cant even get his mesage translated correctly? Is that what you are implying by the mistranslation excuse. If it was any other object that seemed to support your god theory, I think you would boldly point at it and claim it was evidence of gods plan for the universe. But, if someone notices a verse that has god himself saying not only that he laid a foundation for this planet, but that he proudly boasts that he is the only one who knows the measurements of these foundations- you would jump up immediately and call it a mistranslation...dont beleive me?, see for your self...

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Job 38: 1-18[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
    "Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it, And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors, And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed? Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment. And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken. Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth? Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death? Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all."
    [/font]


    God is bragging to job from inside of his whirlwind (which some christians claim to be a reference to UFO's http://www.reverendjeremiah.com/ancientastronauts.htm ); "Has anyone measured the foundations of the Earth? has anyone stretched a line across them? But he asks a good question here; [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened?... I suppose the answer is more foundation. I suppose its foundation all the way down! Well, that settles that question, no need to worry about it anymore. The sea has doors. Clouds are Gods clothes. Stars can sing. God knows where the "ends" of the Earth are (more references to a flat/square earth). Death has gates. and the "shadow" of death has doors." [/font]WOW, this makes a lot of sense, and answered a lot of important questions like; "Does the sea have doors?". That one was really worrying me, thanks God! Now I know what I was missing when they took mandatory bible readings from the American schools and replaced it with the incorrect jibberish called science and evolution.
     
  8. Reverend Jeremiah

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    So there you have it. When Christians tell me that the bible was inspired by god, I look at it this way- man was writing of what he THOUGHT a god would be, or do. But as far as inspiration in the sense that "god" himself wrote the words throught their hands...well then the answer to that is an obvious NO! as the verse above implies when evaluated through simple logic and science.

    Do you want to admit that your god is BRAGGING about blatantly incorrect cosmological knowledge, or do you want to blame the skeptic for "misreading" it, or "mistranslating" it. If I was a priest, and my political power relied on the beleif of this god, then I would be blaming lots of people for mistranslations.
     
  9. Reverend Jeremiah

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    And now for a list of the "authors" of the bible that beleive the sky is solid,and that the earth is flat!;

    Malachi 3: 8-10
    "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."


    The author of Malachi says that people rob god when they refuse to tithe. He suggest that if you do not pay your tithes that god will no longer open the windows of the sky and let the rain come down to feed the crops....so you better get to tithing.
    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Genesis 1:6-10[/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good."[/font]

    The creation of the solid structure in the sky called the heaven, or the firmament...whichever one you want to call it.
    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Genesis 1:14-18[/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good."[/font]

    The moon gives off its own "lesser" light instead of reflecting the sun. Stars are the size of marbles, and are permanently pressed into the solid sky.
    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Job 26:7-14[/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing. He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them. He holdeth back the face of his throne, and spreadeth his cloud upon it. He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end. The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof. He divideth the sea with his power, and by his understanding he smiteth through the proud. By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?"[/font]

    The VAST contents of space to this author is an insignificant "garnish" on the firmament. I beleive that when the refer to "the pillars of heaven" that they mean mountains that hold up the solid sky. And when god gets very angry, these pillars will shake. Of course, I am proud that I know this bible is wrong, and I actively preach against it- yet I have never been smitten.
    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Isaiah 45: 22-23[/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear." [/font]

    The above verse is a favorite for christians to throw at non-christians. Little do they know (or they do know and decide to hide it) that the verses before them speak of a flat/square earth. Thats why I laugh everytime I hear the "every knee shall bow" argument. LOL.
    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Psalm 96:10 [/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously."[/font]

    Good King David wants us to tell the heathen (ignorant Atheists) that the LORD has established the world, so that it shall not be moved. Apparently David thinks the Earth is on foundations at the center of the universe as well.

    Thanks David, you've converted this ignorant Atheist, and I will let every one of my heathen friends in on this accurate info as well.

    1 Samuel 2:8
    "He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them."

    The author of Samuel is very specific about the "pillars" that the earth sits on..and that god told him that he put the earth on them. Inspired by god? hardly...God, along with these pillars,instead was invented in this mans imagination.
     
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  10. Reverend Jeremiah

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    Here is your pillars of the earth verse.

    1 Samuel 2:8
    "He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them."
    :biglaugh:
     
  11. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    Did you notice, Steve, if Holding/Turkel used any of these verses in his wishy, washy conclusion?
     
  12. Reverend Jeremiah

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    Is it possible for me to make a poll on this firmament topic?

    I would like the poll to look like this;

    What is the "Firmament"?
    -the heaven
    -a solid sky with windows for rain
    -a division from the waters above and the waters below
    -all of the above
    -none of the above

    LOL, and how would the poll be placed above this thread?
     
  13. Reverend Jeremiah

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    That list of authors I handed out is by no means a complete list- there are WAY MORE quotes in the bible about incorrect cosmology.:bonk:
     
  14. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    If Steve agrees (it's his thread) I can do that
     
  15. Reverend Jeremiah

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    Yet you call your self a christian, and you know that the cosmology is wrong? How does one do that?
     
  16. Reverend Jeremiah

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    I think Steve has been overwhelmed, I havent seen him answer anything sense you called him on his bogus "cut and paste" response to the firmament issue. Strange, he started this thread...did he bite off more than he could chew? Or was he betting his money on debating an atheist who never read the bible before?
     
  17. Reverend Jeremiah

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    Right off the bat, this website says" we will not address certain words and verses that use "phenomenological" language - i.e., sunset, sunrise, or references to sun and stars moving. As we still use such terms today, in spite of hundreds of years of "knowing better", it should not reflect badly upon the use of such language in the Bible." :tsk:

    So we cant use any mention of flat earth talk in the bible to prove that the bible says the earth is flat..LOL...where do you think we got our "sunrise, sunset" talk from in our western civilization? Hindu scripture?..LOL.

    Hey, "techtonics" is a big, important sounding scientific word..LOL...lets use it to make the bible sound scientific.
     
  18. Reverend Jeremiah

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    Could some one honestly state that the "windows of Heaven" in Genesis is NOT a suggestion of a solid sky?
     
  19. Reverend Jeremiah

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    :tsk:

    So we (atheists) cant use any mention of flat earth talk in the bible to prove that the bible says the earth is flat..LOL...where do you think we got our "sunrise, sunset" talk from in our western civilization? Hindu scripture?..LOL.

    Hey, "techtonics" is a big, important sounding scientific word..LOL...lets use it to make the bible sound scientific

    And then, he breaks his own rules about not mentioning moving stars when he says this
    So he sets the rules that we cannot mention moving stars as part of this debate, then turns around and USES the moving stars to try and "prove" the cosmology is correct. This is what is called underhanded tactics to try to prove your point. The only thing it does prove is that he is willing to lie for Christ.:149: ---typical!
     
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