Fetal Consciousness

[Fool]

Lack of consciousness and not feeling pain seem irrelevant in the abortion debate.

The argument that some propose seems to be

1 it´s ok to kill humans when they are not conscious (even if they would conscious be in the future)

2 a fetus/embryo is not conscious

3 therefore it is ok to kill a fetus/embryo

I would reject premise 1 / otherwise it would be ok to kill a human while he is sleeping or under the effect of anesthesia

So the equation on weather if a 25weeks old fetus is conscious or not is very interesting but irrelevant in the abortion debate

what seems is the overall problem. Seems is just another term for believes. Full of personal bias with no actual substance.

 

[Wildswanderer]

you don't have a bit of a problem with creating laws that control others who are actualized, not potentials, and criminalizing something that doesn't affect another actual human being. doesn't even affect you.

you're projecting your emotions and beliefs on what isn't human. anyone psychologically mature shouldn't be playing with dolls, or other people as objects and shouldn't be playing make believe; especially with other's lives.

I'm not playing make believe. Real children are being denied the chance to have a life. Of course it affects human beings...to say they aren't human is delusional.

 

[Wildswanderer]

No it is not. You said fetus is alive, so abortion is impermissible. Cockroach is alive, so killing it is also impermissible. What quality does a fetus possess that makes it have rights and not our poor little roach?

A cockroach is a bug. It has only the rights we give it. We have dominion over lower life forms.
I have no problem with wearing a leather jacket so why would I care about a bug dying?
A human life is infinity more valuable.

 

[leroy]

Once again.
A cockroach or a bacteria has survival instinct. Should insecticides and antibacterial sprays be made illegal then?

I am not following your conversation with @BrightShadow son I apologize if I miss the context.

But it seems to that

1 we agree on that killing a 1yo (or 5 minutes old) baby is wrong

2 killing a bacteria or an insect it’s not wrong (or at least not as wrong as killing a human)

The point is disagreement seems to be that you claim that it´s ok to kill a baby is it´s geographically located inside the womb, and at the same time you think it’s wrong to kill him if he is outside the womb…………… so what is so special about the womb that makes the baby worth less than a baby that is outside the womb?

 

[Fool]

I'm not playing make believe. Real children are being denied the chance to have a life. Of course it affects human beings...to say they aren't human is delusional.

A lifetime is counted between the day of the first breath and the day of the last breath. A life doesn't exist prior to birth, doesn't exist prior to breath.

Emotions and beliefs don't make any thing other than themselves real. Your Bible doesn't teach that a fetus is human. Yet you're going against your own scripture

You don't offer anything but your opinion, your belief.

You, a male, want to force a female against her own free will to do what you yourself want her to do over something that only has 50% of a chance or less to natural birth.

And still you can't fathom that it isn't psychologically healthy. Isn't spiritually healthy.

 

[leroy]

no you're not. you posted in another post that everything is a belief. you're all over the place. you're trying to make a decision about someone else's circumstances and then deciding for them. you don't care about the circumstances of what is really going on.

you don't have a bit of a problem with creating laws that control others who are actualized, not potentials, and criminalizing something that doesn't affect another actual human being. doesn't even affect you.

you're projecting your emotions and beliefs on what isn't human. anyone psychologically mature shouldn't be playing with dolls, or other people as objects and shouldn't be playing make believe; especially with other's lives.

Under your view, why aren’t embryos actual humans? What makes a born baby more valuble than an embryo?

you're trying to make a decision about someone else's circumstances and then deciding for them. you don't care about the circumstances of what is really going on.

You have to understand that from the point of view of a pro life person abortion is killing an innocent person. So under that view and once you accepted that premise, then yes ofcourse one should make laws that prevent such an act.

 

[leroy]

You, a male, want to force a female against her own free will to do what you yourself want her to do over something that only has 50% of a chance or less to natural birth.
.

Well we (pro life people) what to “forcé” other people not to kill innocent humans. There shoudnt be anything controversial about that.In general terms you would agree with any law that prevents murder of innocent humans, you just want to make an arbitrary exception with humans that are geographically located inside the womb.


The feminist connotation of your post is nonsense. My bet is that nearly all prolife people would still be against abortion even if a men could get pregnant. This has nothing to do with woman rights.

 

[Fool]

Under your view, why aren’t embryos actual humans? What makes a born baby more valuble than an embryo?

actual humans, individuals, aren't linked to another for all their vital needs.

you have to understand that from the point of view of a pro life person abortion is killing an innocent person. So under that view and once you accepted that premise, then yes ofcourse one should make laws that prevent such an act.

Prolifers serve no other purpose than to stir in some one else's personal business with their beliefs. Jesus called such people hypocrites

 

[Fool]

Well we (pro life people) what to “forcé” other people not to kill innocent humans. There shoudnt be anything controversial about that.In general terms you would agree with any law that prevents murder of innocent humans, you just want to make an arbitrary exception with humans that are geographically located inside the womb.


The feminist connotation of your post is nonsense. My bet is that nearly all prolife people would still be against abortion even if a men could get pregnant. This has nothing to do with woman rights.

what an ego.

The ideal is that a person has autonomy. You're interfering in freewill of an actual conscious person, individual.

You believe you have the right to override another humans circumstances for your silly beliefs.

 

[Wildswanderer]

lifetime is counted between the day of the first breath and the day of the last breath. A life doesn't exist prior to birth, doesn't exist prior to breath.

I guess you have never seen an ultrasound?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Yet you're going against your own scripture

Listen to Me, O islands,
"And pay attention, you peoples from afar.
The Lord called Me from the womb;
From the body of My mother He named Me."

How could God call someone who didn't exist according to your version of life?

"And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me? For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy."

The baby, not a lifeless mass of cells.

 

[Wildswanderer]

actual humans, individuals, aren't linked to another for all their vital needs.

Not true. A baby would die without assistance from grown humans.

 

[Fool]

Not true. A baby would die without assistance from grown humans.

fetuses don't breath. Nor do they take food and nourishment through the mouth.

Again you're ignoring the obvious differences.

Still dreaming, fantasizing, believing

 

[Fool]

Listen to Me, O islands,
"And pay attention, you peoples from afar.
The Lord called Me from the womb;
From the body of My mother He named Me."

How could God call someone who didn't exist according to your version of life?

Not in the womb but separated does it become a human and get a name and the spirit.

The spirit quickened the flesh counts for nothing

 

[Fool]

Listen to Me, O islands,
"And pay attention, you peoples from afar.
The Lord called Me from the womb;
From the body of My mother He named Me."

How could God call someone who didn't exist according to your version of life?

"And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me? For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy."

The baby, not a lifeless mass of cells.

The fetus can react to a mother's spirit, her mental state.

You ignored the fact that the lord didn't visit her. Just the mother is mentioned

 

[Wildswanderer]

The fetus can

That's not what it says. It says the BABY leaped for joy. You are against scripture.

 

[Fool]

That's not what it says. It says the BABY leaped for joy. You are against scripture.

The holy Spirit came upon Elizabeth. Even embryos have an autonomic nervous system. The lord Jesus was not there.

Two spirits cannot inhabit one body. That would be a form of possession

 

[Wildswanderer]

The holy Spirit came upon Elizabeth. Even embryos have an autonomic nervous system. The lord Jesus was not there.

Two spirits cannot inhabit one body. That would be a form of possession

You just make this stuff up, don't you?
Anything to avoid what scripture actually said.

 

[sayak83]

A cockroach is a bug. It has only the rights we give it. We have dominion over lower life forms.
I have no problem with wearing a leather jacket so why would I care about a bug dying?
A human life is infinity more valuable.

Why is human life more valuable?

 

[sayak83]

I am not following your conversation with @BrightShadow son I apologize if I miss the context.

But it seems to that

1 we agree on that killing a 1yo (or 5 minutes old) baby is wrong

2 killing a bacteria or an insect it’s not wrong (or at least not as wrong as killing a human)

The point is disagreement seems to be that you claim that it´s ok to kill a baby is it´s geographically located inside the womb, and at the same time you think it’s wrong to kill him if he is outside the womb…………… so what is so special about the womb that makes the baby worth less than a baby that is outside the womb?

Lack of brain structures that can host consciousness.
Same reason as that of a bug