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Feminism and Christianity

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by groovydancer88, Apr 12, 2005.

  1. groovydancer88

    groovydancer88 Active Member

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    9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
    10 But ° (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
    11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
    12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
    13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
    14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
    15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

    1 Timothy 2:9-15.

    Huh??? Someone please explain to me WHY.

    Thanks to Deut for inspiring this one.
     
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  2. Druidus

    Druidus Keeper of the Grove

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    Don't take the bible as literal fact, if you take it as anything at all.

    It was written that way because it was the cultural norm at the time. Women are equal to men.
     
  3. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    Huh??? Someone please explain to me WHY.

    Only because those who wrote it were men in an ancient unenlightened culture.
     
  4. angellous_evangellous

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    Here are some exegetical reflections on the passage:

    1) Women were allowed to participate in early Xn worship services. We see regulations for their prophesying in 1 Corinthians 11 during worship.

    2) However, in Timothy's church, apparently the women may have been trying to "usurp" the authority of their husbands. This could come from speaking out of turn or generally being annoying in a way that would embarrass their husbands.

    3) Another thought is that the Isis cult encouraged female participation and Paul did not want them to speak in the church but to learn instead.

    4) The culture was predominately male-centered and too much participation, at least in the early Xn setting likely could cause embarassment to Paul and others. The only other religions that promoted the participation of women and slaves were not highly thought of in society back in the day, so Paul likely encouraged subjugation to avoid Xnty from sticking out more than it already did.

    5) Due to the fact that Xn women did prophesy in 1 Cor 11 and the exhortation is culturally driven, there is no reason to enforce this command in the church today. However, if women or men start becoming an embarassment to the church (like Paige Patterson, Jerry Fallwell, or James Dobson) we can tell them that they should learn rather than talk :D
     
  5. Pilgrim of this Reality

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    Let us examine the verses:

    I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; 9in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. 11Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

    Now it seems that Paul is knocking women down lower than men. But we have to consider just why women should wear modest clothing and not be a leader of worship. This centers upon the male mainly. She is to dress modestly because most men do not try to temper their lusts. By dressing so she would send a message to those men that she is more than just a body. This idea extends to worship as well. A female preacher would distract men more than a male would women. Lets face it. Males are actually the weaker of the genders.

    Now let us consider a similar verse:

    1 Corinthians 14:34

    Let your women keep silent in the churches for they are not permited to speak; but they are to be submissive as the law also says.

    Notice that Paul says in churches. In other words when the people gather together (or called out as the word church means) to worship is when women are to be silent. I get the impression he means in a public sense. Notice also that he mentions the law . In other words he is refering to the Jewish law. Many today have a problem with this idea. Mainly, its the only bar placed on a women in the new testament-it prevents her from having a PUBLIC role in worship. The behind the scenes role is much more important. Who actually listens to a sermon anyway? ;)

    Apparently, there was a problem with women interrupting worship. How, we cannot say for sure. Although the above post about Isis is a good assumption.
    As for the argument that women today are more educated and therefore this doesnt apply today. During the Roman Empire, women could own land, have assets,be educated, and be a citizen in every way except for voting and serving in the military. Granted not all women were, but many had these advantages.

    Overall, its not a matter of submissiveness as many take it to be. Its a matter of jobs. Males have things expected of them as do the women. When learning everyone is submissive to the teacher or the preacher -they dont interrupt them. Although the genders are equal; women are stronger overall. (Eve sinning in Genesis wasnt a lesson about how "weak" women are, but a lesson about how weakly learning something from a fellow person is).
     
  6. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    There are many injustices that were "overlooked" in the early church, such as slavery and women's rights. While these are things that many of us hold as sacrosanct they were largely undealt with by the primitive church.

    So did the primitive church believe that these inequalities were God's plan? I really don't think so. Unlike the modern churches, the primitive church did NOT participate in social or political debates. They were critically focused on only ONE mission: To seek and save the lost. Nothing else was allowed to detract from this all important mission.

    To this end, Paul was a chameleon:

    I Corinthians 9:19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
     
  7. DakotaGypsy

    DakotaGypsy Active Member

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    Jesus was a feminist.
     
  8. Buttons*

    Buttons* Glass half Panda'd

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    Yeshua was a humanist
     
  9. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    Blimey this is an old thread.

    Anyway, yeah - Jesus didn't teach to subjugate women that was Paul again. Jesus had female disciples, Mary Magdalane, his mother and his sister are all named.
     
  10. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    How do you manage to only name the females?
     
  11. Buttons*

    Buttons* Glass half Panda'd

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    to prove a point you didnt get
     
  12. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    Alright. Please share. :)
     
  13. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    Hmm? Well, you already know the names of the most important of his male disciples.

    "Three Marys walked with the lord:
    His mother, his sister, and Mary of Magdala,
    his companion."

    Gospel of Philip.
     
  14. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    Gospel of Philip? Is this another Davinci Code?
    That didn't really answer my question. How did you manage to take the "maleness" away from most writings? Is the Gospel of Philip a book the does this?
     
  15. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    Lol, Da Vinci code :biglaugh: You have no idea. Have you never read the other gospels?

    I haven't taken the maleness away from anything, others have added maleness.
     
  16. Bishka

    Bishka Veteran Member

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    Probably because the male apostles and followers are a little more well known?!?;)
     
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  17. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    I knew you'd like the Davinci comment. :D
    I've read some (like the Gospel of Thomas). So you do believe there was some maleness?
    By the way the most elevated human being (aside from God obviously) is a women. Above all Popes, Bishops, priest, etc. The HOLY MOTHER. :hug: Not only that but the Church is noted as her. It's a female Church.
     
  18. Bishka

    Bishka Veteran Member

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    BTW, Victor have you even read the Da Vinci code? Myself as a Latter-day Saint, I've even heard of these gospels, and I agree with somethings found in these gospels. Although they are not part of our canon, I believe someday they may be. Who knows...:)

    I agree with Halcyon on this though.
     
  19. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    Indeed. And yet are there any women in the church hierarchy - nope.
     
  20. Bishka

    Bishka Veteran Member

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    You read my mind. I was actually going to say something to the effect that if women are so important, then why aren't their any books in your(Victor's) canon of scripture in the New Testament? Do you have the Book of Ruth in your Old Testament?
     
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