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Featured Female Pastors? is it Biblical

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by 101G, Nov 13, 2019.

  1. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Do you think “Watchtower” is what Jesus started? Do you think Jesus started as a state criminal? Things change over time to meet the current need.
    When the Day of Pentecost came, those touched by the Holy Spirit were identified by a holy flame over their heads.
    Do you have any idea what the vestments mean? I guess not.

    I agree that the Inquisitions were despicable. But no more so than the homophobia and misogyny displayed today by my conservative Christian groups.
    Perhaps we ought to include the Red Hat Ladies too? And the Alabama Crimson Tide? And the Red Cross? Do you know why the Cardinals dress on red?

    I thought not.

    Do you think Jesus started a church that judged others based on what color they wore?

    I thought not.
    Nor did he advocate misogyny or homophobia. Nor did he advocate judging others.

    As I said, things change as needs arise. Neither is the diocese led by a single minister or priest. You mock what you clearly don’t understand.

    Do you know why the bishop carries a crozier? I thought not. See my last sentence above.

    Yes, that’s why each individual congregation has presbyters and deacons who serve at the behest of the bishop. That’s the way it’s always been.

    S/he still visits. I’ve always known my bishop personally.

    Yes, that’s still the case.

    That’s the problem with your post. You “believe” — you don’t know.

    See above.
     
  2. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I grow weary of this inane practice of the literalists who twist the texts by lifting certain ones out of context in order to judge others.
     
  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The Watchtower is a Bible Society engaged by JW's to print and distribute Bible literature.

    Indeed things change.....as is seen in Christendom.....and not for the better. :(

    I am fairly sure that neither Jesus nor his apostles wore vestments, nor were they commanded to wear any distinctive garments at all. (Not even a black suit with a back-to-front collar) They dressed like the common people and did not elevate themselves above them. That was part of Jesus' appeal.
    The decision to wear distinctive clothing and to hold positions of rank was made by "the church" not Jesus Christ.

    According to one definition....."In the early years of Church, vestments worn for liturgies were the same as the clothes worn in ordinary everyday use by the Greek and Roman cultures in the 4th century."
    Are we in the 4th century? o_O

    It seems strange to me that the Jewish religious leaders were criticised by Jesus for exaggerating features of the clothing they wore so as to stand out from the common people. Jesus did not ever advocate special garb. He simply said...."all you are brothers". Roles within the congregations were service privileges, not positions of rank and authority as they became when the RCC was enforced on the Roman Empire.

    If you can't be identified by your conduct, then what are distinctive garments supposed to do for anyone?
    Can you show us where litergies were ever part of first century Christianity? I find no prescribed rituals or repetitive prayers conducted in the first century by any Christians. Certainly no rosary beads or crucifixes....so where did they come from? Not Jesus.

    You place homophobia and misogyny on the same level as torture and murder of the innocent in the Inquisition? :eek:

    Christ taught from the Hebrew Scriptures and so did the apostles. Paul, as a former Pharisee, especially knew the scriptures well and his letters condemn homosexual acts as well as clearly stating the role of women in the congregations. I do not see how the world's view of these things alters scripture, authored by a God who does not change his standards to accommodate the desires of wilful sinners. They can offer him their excuses if they like. (Matthew 7:21-23)

    In scripture, the bad guy is in red. (Revelation 17:3)
    Sin is also likened to the color red. (Isaiah 1:18)

    Purple and scarlet were the colors of royalty.
    [​IMG]

    ...sitting on a throne is also a claim to royalty.....who is seen claiming that status?....

    [​IMG]


    That is just the point....there was no distinctive color of the garments they wore. They were dressed like everyone else. If Jesus had worn distinctive clothing, Judas would never have had to identify Jesus with a kiss....would he? If Jesus is our example to follow, whose example is "the church" following?

    He never advocated 99% of what "the church" teaches or practices.
    What you call misogyny was simply the supporting role of women which the apostle Paul described in some detail. Christian women see their role as important so they would never compete with men because the roles are God-assigned...not to be tampered with to accommodate the changing worldview of men.

    I can mock what I left because I was raised in Christendom and I know what they teach and I know what they do that is contrary to so many of Jesus' teachings. They fell into the same satanic trap of yielding to man-made traditions, as the Jewish leaders did, instead of sticking to the teachings of the Master. The result is a church that is a complete departure from the original. Like Judaism, the people have no idea how far they have strayed. It's all they have known.

    Did Jesus carry one? Did he advocate that his apostles or disciples carry one and dress in distinctive clothing to denote their role as pastors? Or was their conduct enough? What counts more with God?

    The role of bishops have changed significantly since the first century. His role was not part of a heirarchy.....he was a servant, not a boss. There were no bosses...and certainly, no Pope.

    How lovely for you. I wonder how many others can say that?
    Bishops and Archbishops tend to be rather remote from the congregations, who generally, (but not always) are known to the priest or minister if they are regular church goers.

    Oh but I do.....I think that perhaps it is you who cannot see past what you yourself have been taught to "believe".

    If people think that women belong in leadership roles in the Christian Congregation, then they either have no knowledge of scripture, or the church has reinvented Christianity to suit inappropriate human desires and worldly standards. (John 18:36)
    Equality isn't the issue....knowing your place and not usurping the role assigned to someone else is an act of humility.

    That is what I have come to understand after over 40 years of studying the scriptures.....you may have a completely different view.....the fact is that there is only one truth and Jesus appointed a "faithful slave" to feed his household their "food at the proper time". (Matthew 24:45) So it is up to us to find out who he is?

    I believe I know......
     
    #163 Deeje, Dec 14, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2019
  4. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Out of your whole lengthy post, this is the only point worth answering, because the rest is so misapprehended that nothing can straighten it out. It’s obvious from the rest of your diatribe that you patently don’t know what they teach, for you’ve managed to get all of it wrong.
     
  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Funny....I thought the same thing about your response.....how did the church manage to get it all so wrong....

    You take the road you choose.....and I will take the road less traveled....(Matthew 7:13-14)
     
  6. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I think you missed the left turn at Albuquerque...
     
  7. 101G

    101G Member

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    GINOLJC, to all
    since it's the season for many, let's look at another woman preacher right under our noses during this seasons that we all look at every year and fail to understand.. the surrogate mother of our Lord Jesus the Christ, Yes ..... Preacher and prophet Mary. let's have another look at this woman, not just because she is a virgin, nor her being the surrogate mother of our Lord, but what she did at her cousin house.......... preached.

    Scripture, Luke 1:39 "And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;

    Luke 1:40 "And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.

    Luke 1:41 "And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

    Luke 1:42 "And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb

    Luke 1:43 "And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

    Luke 1:44 "For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

    Luke 1:45 "And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

    Notice verse 42 above. the Word "spake" out here is the Greek word,
    G400 ἀναφωνέω anaphoneo (a-na-fō-ne'-ō) v.
    to speak out, exclaim.
    [from G303 and G5455]
    KJV: speak out

    exclaim means to speak out or cry out suddenly, or to "cry". not tears from one's eyes, but ... let's see this "Cry" in action, in the OT. Isaiah 40:6 "The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field” . Cry here in Hebrew means, publish, proclaim, or preach let's see it in the Hebrew, .
    H7121 קָרָא qara' (kaw-raw') v.
    1. (properly) to call out to someone (but used in a wide variety of applications).
    2. (generally) to call (or address) by name.
    3. (specially) to call forth (a thing, action, or person).
    4. (by extension) to officially proclaim.
    5. (hence) to read aloud.
    [a primitive root (rather identical with H7122 through the idea of accosting a person met)]
    KJV: bewray (self), that are bidden, call (for, forth, self, upon), cry (unto), (be) famous, guest, invite, mention, (give) name, preach, (make) proclaim(- ation), pronounce, publish, read, renowned, say.

    see how the KJV can translate "Cry" There it is "PREACH", Prophet PREACH.

    Now let's see another Prophet in the NT Preach using another variation of our English word "speak". scripture, Luke 2:36 "And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;

    Luke 2:37 "And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
    Luke 2:38 "And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

    Here Spake is the Greek word,
    G2980 λαλέω laleo (lal-ye'-ō) v.
    to talk, i.e. speak words.
    [a prolonged form of an otherwise obsolete verb]
    KJV: preach, say, speak (after), talk, tell, utter
    Compare: G3004, G2036, G5346, G4483

    see how the KJV can translate the word, spake .... "PREACH". and this prophet preached to all that was in Jerusalem who looked for redemption. and this woman was a female prophet, a prophetess

    Here two women Preaching Jesus the Christ, (the Gospel, the Good News), before any man after the messiah birth..

    I just love it how the Holy Spirit who inspire men to write these verses in the KJV hid so many thing from the NATURAL MAN eyes.

    PICJAG.
     
  8. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Except that it’s Elizabeth who’s doing the speaking, not Mary.
     
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  9. 101G

    101G Member

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    you are absolutely right, I take my hat off to you. MY BAD. Iron sharpen Iron. I was so busy copying my notes got the wrong woman. so thank you.

    you get a five star General for that. God gave you some GOOD Godly eyes.


    what are friends for? keeping them right.... :)

    PICJAG. .
     
  10. JesusKnowsYou

    JesusKnowsYou Active Member

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    Post 1 of 3

    I know this post has been a long time coming, but your continual “wresting” of the scriptures has left me weary.
    This seems like the perfect time to do a summary of our discussion so far. I will only cover the comments that deal with the OP.

    In the OP you claimed that “Women are prophets” then to support that claim you quoted 1 Corinthians 12:28 (which does not mention women, female prophets or “prophetesses”) .

    My initial post was simply pointing out that fact and that your claim that this verse was supporting the idea that women were being ordained as prophets in the early Christian Church was merely your opinion (which you expressly forbade anyone to share in the OP).

    You responded that your initial claim was not merely your opinion because a “prophetess” is a female prophet, therefore the ordination of prophets mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:28 should apply to female prophets as well.

    I again pointed out the fact that the verse did not mention women, female prophets or “prophetesses”, but rather men being ordained to the position of a prophet.

    To this you “doubled-downed” on your initial claim that “Women are prophetesses” by supplying the definition for “prophetess” (which definition had never been disputed) nor had the fact that “prophetesses” existing in the past been disputed.

    The only dispute so far had been whether or not the early Christian Church had ordained women to be prophets and if 1 Corinthians 12:28 applied to women. SPOILER: They didn’t and it doesn’t.

    To all this I clarified that “prophetesses” did in fact exist (such as Anna who praised Jesus as a child in the temple), but that 1 Corinthians 12:28 still did not apply to women and that women could not be ordained as pastors/priests/bishops/elders/prophets because those were positions in the Priesthood and women could not hold the Priesthood.

    You then claimed that there was a gift of the Spirit known as “pastoring” that could be given to anyone and that since prophets were those who could both “teach” and “preach”, then the position of prophet could also be held by women, since they could also “teach” and “preach”.

    I confessed that I had never heard of a Spirit Gift known as “pastoring” and that even though anyone could be guided to teach and preach by the Holy Ghost only those with Priesthood authority could “organize, officiate and preside over any congregation” because God’s House is one of order.

    So far (a recap within a recap) you had made a claim (Women are prophets) that was not at all supported by the Biblical verse you quoted and then you used nothing but your opinion to defend that false claim.

    The fact that “prophetesses” existed does not support your claim that women were being ordained to the position of prophet/pastor/priest/bishop/elder in the early Christian Church.

    We begin to see your pattern of making false claims, quoting Bible verses that do not support your false claims and then using everything (but the scriptures) to try and support your claim or change what the Bible actually teaches.

    Let’s continue.

    It was at this time that you asked me to supply Biblical evidence for my claim that women were prohibited from serving as pastors/priests/elders/prophets or from being ordained to preside over a congregation.

    I shared 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 which claims that: “God is not the author of confusion”, “women should keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak” and “let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”

    I then shared 1 Timothy 2:11-15 which claims that: "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection”, “suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.”

    I also mentioned that Paul in the beginning of 1 Timothy 3 claimed that bishops were to be chosen from “men” who were “husbands”. There was no mention of women being selected for that position.

    In your response you posed the question, “Why not?” and then quoted from Phillippians 4:1-3, claiming that Paul’s desire that the women who labored with him in the field should receive help was somehow proof that these women had been called to be pastors/priests/elders/bishops/prophets.

    Then you claimed that the references to “women” in 1 Corinthians 14 and 1 Timothy 2 were only to married women and that the term “man” used in 1 Timothy 3 to describe who should be called to be a bishop did not actually mean “man” but “whosoever”.

    Basically, you again applied your own interpretation to these scriptures to twist and change their meaning to align with your false claim (like what you did with 1 Corinthians 12) that women were called to be prophets in the early Christian Church.

    There is literally zero Biblical support for the ideas, 1.) that those women who labored with Paul were themselves pastors/priests/elders/bishops/prophets, 2.) the use of the term “women” in the above mentioned verses described only married women and that, 3.) the term “man” used in 1 Timothy 3 could also somehow refer to women.

    So, again, we see your pattern of making false claims, quoting Bible verses that do not support your false claims and then using everything (but the scriptures) to try and support your claim or change what the Bible actually teaches.

    My answer to your “Why not?” was that the scriptures said so, but I then gave my explanation of the Patriarchal Order of Heaven by mentioning key facts of the story of Adam and Eve and I then quoted from Ephesians 5:22-29 to further support the principle.

    I then explained that women travelling/laboring with Paul does not mean that they were ordained to any Priesthood calling. It was Paul who was called and ordained to the ministry and Apostleship. Just because someone may aide him in his ministry does not mean that they were ordained to any Priesthood position.

    I also explained that your claim that the term “women” in the scriptures I quoted meant only “married women” made no sense in light of the fact that Paul counseled these women to both ask their husbands at home and also remain silent. A complete contradiction.

    Also, the introduction in 1 Corinthians made it clear that his instructions were to all women of the church in Corinth, not just married ones.

    Then I further clarified that the term “man” used in 1 Timothy 3 was not the only qualifier for those who should be considered to be a bishop. They were also referred to as “husbands” and it mentioned that “his” children should be seen as an example of how he ruled his house.

    It is evidence of the absurdity of this world when someone claims that the term "man" who is also a "husband" could be a reference to a woman.

    From this summary it is clear for all to see that it has been you (and only you) that has claimed that I am operating under any error and also that the Bible does not support your false claims about women being ordained to Priesthood positions in the early Christian Church.

    You should stop trying to “wrest” the scriptures and applying your own interpretations.
     
    #170 JesusKnowsYou, Dec 24, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2019
  11. JesusKnowsYou

    JesusKnowsYou Active Member

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    Post 2 of 3

    Most, if not all, of your last post had nothing to do with the OP, but I will address it.
    An interesting thing for someone in your position to say.
    You were the one you initially claimed that I was the one not being constructive, so shouldn’t you be asking yourself this question?
    Well, then how would you explain the beginning of Genesis 22, when it reads,

    “And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

    And he (God) said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.” (Genesis 22:1-2) (Bold, italics and (God) added)

    Did these verses describe an angel relaying a message or did it not clearly state that it was God who tempted Abraham?

    Why then would an angel later claim that Abraham was willing to offer up his only son to him, the angel?

    Didn’t the first verses explain that it was God Himself who commanded Abraham to offer up Isaac?

    Now, I am not at all confused by these things because I understand the concept of the Divine Investiture of Authority.

    There are many times recorded in the scriptures when servants or messengers of God speak as if they themselves were God.

    They do this because when God sends them He gives them power and authority not only to act and speak in His name, but to operate as if they themselves were God Himself.

    This creates a seamless connection between the one receiving the blessing or message and God. The servant or messenger who is giving the blessing or message is merely an instrument, or conduit, between God and Man.

    God does this with those servants who have perfectly aligned their minds and hearts with His will. They have become “one” with Him and He therefore trusts them explicitly to yield His power and authority as if they were themselves God.

    Let’s talk about a few other examples of the Divine Investiture of Authority.

    Genesis 16 records that after Hagar fled from Sarah how an angel of the Lord found her and convinced her to return.

    Even though the account clearly states that it was an angel that spoke with her, the angel speaks as if He were God Himself when he promised her, “I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.” (Genesis 16:10)

    And Hagar is recorded to have believed that she had personally spoken with God, “And she called the name of the Lord that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?” (Genesis 16:13)

    This angel acted as a conduit and formed a direct link between God and Hagar through the Divine Investiture of Authority.

    Genesis 18 also records how Abraham entertained three holy men, yet the account continually refers to these men as if they themselves were the Lord.

    The chapter begins by claiming that the Lord appeared to Abraham, but the next verse claims that when Abraham looked up he saw three men, to whom he immediately bowed and called them “Lord”.

    Then, as Abraham fed these men, they said to him,

    “Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.

    And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son.” (Genesis 18:9-10)

    We all remember that Sarah laughed at this, but the three holy men responded as if they were themselves the Lord,

    “And the Lord said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?

    Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.” (Genesis 18:13-14)

    Then the record claims that Abraham took the three men toward Sodom, where a strange conversation occurs supposedly between the Lord and these three men, where the Lord keeps referring to Himself in the third person.

    Then when the three men turn to Sodom to go there the record claims that Abraham “stood yet before the Lord” (Genesis 18:22) and spoke with Him, begging that He spare the righteous of the city.

    This chapter may seem confusing, but when we take into account the concept of the Divine Investiture of Authority we see that the Lord Himself was never there in person, or physically. God Himself did not eat Abraham’s food nor did Abraham bar God’s way to Sodom.

    These three holy men, however, had been given the authority to speak and act as if they themselves were God. They were a direct link between Abraham and God. Abraham knew this and acted accordingly, treating them with the same reverence he would have to God Himself.

    Another classic example of the Divine Investiture of Authority is at the scene of the burning bush.

    The Exodus account clearly states that “the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush” (Exodus 3:2) yet it immediately declares that “God called unto him out of the midst of the bush” (Exodus 3:4).

    Then this angel, who appeared as a flame of fire in the bush and who was an instrument for God to speak to Moses claimed, “I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” (Exodus 3:6)

    We all know that an angel is not God, but through the Divine Investiture of Authority, this angel spoke as if he were God and the record makes no distinction between this angel and God because, as far as God Himself was concerned, there was no difference.

    Exodus also records that God claimed that Moses would take God’s place for Aaron (Exodus 4:16) and also that he would be made “a god to Pharaoh” (Exodus 7:1) because God knew that Moses would not say or do anything contrary to His will.

    It was also by the Divine Investiture of Authority that Moses was given authority over the waters. That they would obey his voice as if it were God’s own voice.

    The last example I will mention is near the conclusion of the Book of Revelation when one of the seven angels spoke to John, bidding him to follow and then proceeded to show him the celestialization of the Earth.

    Upon seeing these things John fell down and began to worship the angel, but the angel rebuked John saying,

    “See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.” (Revelation 22:9)

    Immediately after this the angel proceeds to speak as if he himself were the Lord Jesus Christ:

    “Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

    He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

    And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

    I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.” (Revelation 22:10-13) (Bold and italics added)

    Then again, the angel switches to speaking as if he were just a mere angel again when he said,

    “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:14-15) (Bold and italics added)

    Then, he again switches to speaking as if he was the Lord Jesus Christ Himself:

    I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.” (Revelation 22:16) (Bold and italics added)

    Then in the concluding verse the angel speaks as both the Lord Jesus Christ and then again as a mere angel,

    “He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.” (Revelation 22:20) (Bold and italics added)

    So we see that, through the Divine Investiture of Authority, that when this angel was relaying the Lord’s words he spoke as if he were the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, then he would switch to speaking as a mere angel when he was adding his own testimony to the message that the Lord had commanded him to speak.

    Now I end with just a touch of latter-day scripture,

    “What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.” (Doctrine and Covenants 1:38) (Bold and italics added)
     
    #171 JesusKnowsYou, Dec 24, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2019
  12. JesusKnowsYou

    JesusKnowsYou Active Member

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    Post 3 of 3
    [​IMG]When you come to understand the concept of the Divine Investiture of Authority you realize that it does not matter if God Himself spoke from Heaven or if He commanded an angel to speak on His behalf, it is the Word of God and should be considered a message straight from God to Man.

    Whether or not God used an angel to convey this testimony literally does not matter, even though I am inclined to believe that He spoke it Himself. The voice from Heaven was God the Father testifying of His Son.

    You also seem to forget the example I shared in my last post of the Son speaking to the Father and the Father speaking from Heaven in reply to the Son.

    "Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again." (John 12:28)

    It doesn’t get any clearer than that.
    Yes, but the very first verse of John claims that the Word was both “with God” and “was God” (John 1:1).

    There is no confusion when the Divine Investiture of Authority is considered.

    The Genesis account also claims that there were at least two Beings present during the Creation and when Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden,

    “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.” (Genesis 1:26) (Bold and italics added)

    “And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

    Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.” (Genesis 3:22-23) (Bold and italics added)

    The Lord Jesus Christ is the Word and He was both with God the Father and has Himself the power and authority of God.

    The Lord Jesus Christ created all things under the direction of His Father.

    The title “Lord God” can be equally applied to both the Father and the Son.
    You are ignoring the fact that this entire message was given by both the Father and the Son.

    “Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.” (Isaiah 44:6) (Bold and italics added)

    Through the Divine Investiture of Authority both the Father and the Son spoke as one and they share the title “Lord” and “King of Israel” and are both considered the first and last because they are one God, in purpose and will.

    The Father has given all power and authority to the Son.

    However, the position as “redeemer” is reserved for the Lord Jesus Christ alone. He is the Father’s redeemer for Mankind.

    The title of “Lord of Hosts” is also reserved for the Son, because He represents and takes responsibility for all of Creation.

    The verse you quoted is God (both the Father and the Son) claiming that idols are worthless. They did not create anything nor can they redeem Man.

    According to Genesis 1-3 and John 1, it was both the Father and the Son who created Man and planned out how they were to be redeemed.
    It was the pre-mortal Lord Jesus Christ (known then as Jehovah) who created the Earth, but He did so under the authority and direction of God the Father.
    You do not know or understand the scriptures.

    You choose one here and one there and then apply your own interpretation to them. You isolate them.

    You do not take into account the totality of the scriptures. The entire testimony contained therein.

    I am interested to see how you decide to “wrest” with what I have shared with you and try to change what the scriptures teach.
     
    #172 JesusKnowsYou, Dec 24, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2019
  13. 101G

    101G Member

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    GINOLJC, to all.
    First thanks for the reply, second,
    out of your 3 Parts, only one thing you said was true, and holds the key to your ignorance on this topic.
    well it's right there in the bible, the very first gift on the list of the Spirit,
    1 Corinthians 12:7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
    1 Corinthians 12:8 "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit".

    do you know what a word of Wisdom is? let the bible tell you, Proverbs 1:2 "To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding". so if I speak a word of wisdom to you, you get "Understanding."
    Now what did 1 Corinthians 12:8 "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit".

    so the Spirit, according to 1 Corinthians 12:8, gives KNOWLEDGE and UNDERSTANDING. so what do a biblical pastor do?, since you don't know, again let the bible tell you,
    Jeremiah 3:15 "And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding". BINGO there it is. the very first gift on the list in 1 Corinthians 12:8 is the Pastoral Gift. "Knowledge" and "Understanging"

    see, JesusKnowsYou. the only Pastor in the church, of the Lord Jesus", is the Lord God himself. he is the Gift, the Holy Spirit.. it is the Spirit that speak through the chosen vessel. be ye it man or woman. for the scriptures, plainly state,1 Corinthians 12:7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal". and God is no respector of person.

    the reason why you didn't know or see the Spirit as Pastor, just like you didn't see speaking in tongues that was foretold in Joel 2:28 and 29 also. Speaking in tongue is right in Joel 2:28 & 29 just like the Pastor is there. but your eyes are closed to the truth. that's why you didn't know that, (the Spirit Gift known as “pastoring”) is and are is a GIFT of the Spirit.

    what we suggest you do is go back and study and ask the Lord Jesus to open your spiritual eyes so that you can understand his Holy Word. else ask your local pastor, he or she should know this.

    so have a Merry Christmas.

    PICJAG.
     
  14. 101G

    101G Member

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    this is off topic, but have application on the subject.
    there was no two being present at creation nor at the making of MAN.
    if so give book chapter and verse to this effect.

    PICJAG.
     
  15. JesusKnowsYou

    JesusKnowsYou Active Member

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    The summary of our discussion and the several Biblical examples I provided of the Divine Investiture of Authority are sufficient evidence to prove that I am hardly ignorant of this topic and that your opinion is not supported by the scriptures.

    I believe that anyone who read my post could see all this for themselves, but your comments and the quickness to which you responded are proof to me that you did not actually read my post.
    Wow. Just...wow.

    Even though I have been shocked to my core by your argument, there is a little excited voice inside me that asks, "Is this really happening? Because I kinda hope it is."

    I don't know how to explain how wrong you are. It's just so wrong.

    Your argument that those who have been blessed with the spiritual gifts of wisdom and understanding should instantly be considered ordained pastors is ridiculous. Laughable.

    It is an argument that is completely void of those two spiritual gifts, because it lacks wisdom and understanding of scripture.

    That would be like claiming that anyone who has a testimony of Jesus should be considered an ordained prophet because "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Revelation 19:10)

    In 1 Corinthians 12 Paul is teaching the Gentile saints in Corinth that just because the Holy Spirit manifests itself through various spiritual gifts, that does not mean that there are various spirits or gods, but only the one Holy Spirit of God that bestows these various gifts.

    He then explained that all of these gifts were important and should be considered many members of the same body.

    Your claim that those who have the spiritual gifts of wisdom and understanding should be considered ordained pastors is refuted by Paul at the conclusion of that selfsame chapter (which you ignored because you only "pick and choose" which scriptures you care to know. You don't take into account the totality of the scriptures.)

    After his explanation on spiritual gifts Paul claims that,

    "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

    And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." (1 Corinthians 12:27-28) (Bold and italics added)

    Notice that the "ye" here is a reference to members of the "church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours" (1 Corinthians 1:2).

    Also, notice that Paul claimed that only "some" among the entirety of the Church were set apart as apostles/prophets/teachers(pastors) and after these Priesthood positions "some" can perform miracles, healing, gift of tongues and other gifts.

    So, any faithful servant of Christ can be bestowed a spiritual gift, but that bestowal does not make someone an apostle/prophet/teacher(pastor). Paul clarifies this fact even further in the next couple verses.

    "Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

    Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

    But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way." (1 Corinthians 12:29-31)

    Since Paul already claimed that only "some" were set apart to be apostles/prophets/teachers(pastors) and only "some" will exhibit those various spiritual gifts, we know that the answer to these questions are "No".

    Not every single person will be an apostle/prophet/teacher(pastor) or workers of miracles. Not everyone is going to have the gifts of healing, tongues or the ability to interpret.

    Despite this fact, Paul encourages us to earnestly seek after these spiritual gifts. Then he admits that there is a "more excellent way", which begins in 1 Corinthians 13 and is that fact that if charity is not in us, none of these other spiritual gifts will help us or amount to anything.

    If your argument were accurate (it isn't) then how did the evil spirit overpower those who had been inspired by the testimony of Paul concerning Jesus in Acts 19?

    "Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.

    And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.

    And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

    And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded." (Acts 19:13-16)

    Not just anyone has authority to act in God's name. Not just anyone, no matter how inspired they may feel, can assume any Priesthood position.

    The honor, or authority, of a Priesthood position cannot be taken by anyone unto themselves, they must be called of God. (Hebrews 5:4)

    The idea that anyone can be bestowed with spiritual gifts is not an argument that anyone who has those gifts should be considered an ordained apostle/prophet/teacher(pastor).

    That would be like claiming that anyone who has a nice singing voice should be considered a professional singer with a record label.

    Men who exhibit the spiritual gifts of wisdom and understanding may be more likely to become pastors, but they cannot assume that role themselves, they must be called of God, set apart and ordained to that position in order to have any authority.

    You simply have no argument.
    Who is this "we", do you mean like the royal "we"?

    Now, when you encourage me to "ask my local pastor", you actually mean "anyone", right?

    Since, to you, anyone can be considered a pastor at any time. There is no need for any ordination.

    So, you are encouraging me to go and ask my local grocer to explain these things to me?
    I already did this in my last post.

    This is further proof that you did not read my post.
    You too.
     
    #175 JesusKnowsYou, Dec 28, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2019
  16. 101G

    101G Member

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    I did read your post, that's why I responded. that were in ERROR.
    Did I say all was prophets? NO, did I say all was teachers? NO, did I said all was Pastors? NO, so why make a empty argument? now I ask you, just to see if you're read and have any understanding, is the apostle Paul a Pastor? yes or No. cain't wait to hear that answer.
    because they was ignorant. like these post you are making, did you not hear them,
    Acts 19:13 "Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
    Acts 19:14 "And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
    Acts 19:15 "And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

    did you see their Igorance? they took it upon "themselves". first mistake. then they said "by Jesus whom Paul Preach", they didn't even KNOW Jesus. mistake #2.which told the deamons they didn't know the Lord Jesus so they made itstrike 3 for they was out of their league they was Igoorant of God Word.
    PICJAG.
     
  17. JesusKnowsYou

    JesusKnowsYou Active Member

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    Your OP asked if the idea of female bishops/pastors was supported by the Bible.

    I have been pointing out that the Bible does not support that idea. It mentions only men being called, set apart and ordained to Priesthood positions (like bishop/pastor).

    Your premise throughout our discussion has been that women could be fill Priesthood positions (such as bishop/pastor) without ordination.

    Your claim has been that as long as these women were being helpful to ordained Priesthood leaders, teaching others or had been blessed with certain spiritual gifts - they were prophets/bishops/pastors/etc.

    Your entire last post was you claiming that anyone who has the spiritual gifts of wisdom and understanding should be considered bishops/pastors.

    After quoting from Proverbs 1:2 and 1 Corinthians 12:8 (which mentioned the spiritual gifts of understanding, wisdom and knowledge) you asked me, "so what do a biblical pastor do?"

    You then claimed that I was ignorant and quoted Jeremiah 3:15 which stated that bishop/spastors were those who feed others with knowledge and understanding.

    Then you said, "BINGO there it is. the very first gift on the list in 1 Corinthians 12:8 is the Pastoral Gift. "Knowledge" and "Understanging""

    Then you made the claim that the only pastor in the Church is the Holy Spirit (which you falsely claimed was the Lord God) then you said,

    "it is the Spirit that speak through the chosen vessel. be ye it man or woman. for the scriptures, plainly state,1 Corinthians 12:7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal". and God is no respector of person."

    Then after you claimed that I was ignorant again you said, " (the Spirit Gift known as “pastoring”) is and are is a GIFT of the Spirit."

    I am now going to write in caps, bold and italics so that what I say cannot be missed.

    YOU CLAIMED THAT ANYONE BLESSED WITH THESE SPIRITUAL GIFTS SHOULD BE CONSIDERED BISHOPS/PASTORS WITHOUT BEING CALLED OF GOD, BEING SET APART AND ORDAINED BY THE LEADERS OF THE CHURCH.

    SINCE THERE IS NO WAY TO DISCERN WHO DOES AND DOES NOT HAVE THESE SPIRITUAL GIFTS - YOU ARE CLAIMING THAT ANYONE AND EVERYONE CAN BE A BISHOP/PASTOR AS LONG AS THEY CLAIM TO POSSESS UNDERSTANDING, WISDOM AND KNOWLEDGE.

    GOD'S KINGDOM IS ONE OF ORDER AND HE ORGANIZED THE ORIGINAL CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST BY CALLING, SETTING APART AND ORDAINING PROPHETS/APOSTLES/BISHOPS(PASTORS)/ETC BY HIS AUTHORIZED SERVANTS.

    THERE IS NO SPIRITUAL GIFT KNOWN AS "PASTORING" AND NOT JUST ANYONE WHO IS BLESSED WITH THESE SPIRITUAL GIFTS SHOULD BE CONSIDERED A BISHOP/PASTOR.

    MY ARGUMENT IS NOT "EMPTY". YOU ARE JUST PLAIN WRONG.

    No, he was not a bishop/pastor. He had been called of God, set apart and ordained as first an Elder and then afterwards an Apostle.

    As an Apostle, Paul had the authority to preside over a congregation or officiate a worship service in place of a bishop/pastor if he were visiting during his ministry, but he could only do so with the consent of the local bishop/pastor.

    He was an Apostle for the entire Church and he traveled continuously to all the churches.

    No one can claim to be a bishop/pastor of any congregation without first being called of God, set apart and ordained to the position by the leaders of the Church.
    Ignorance has nothing to do with anything.

    The Lord Jesus Christ's disciples were often ignorant of many things, but they had still been called of God, set apart and ordained by the Lord Jesus Christ.

    A position in the Priesthood is not gained by knowledge or learning, but by being called of God, being set apart and being ordained.
    This is no different than those who claim to be bishops/pastors just because they claim to have the spiritual gifts of knowledge, wisdom and understanding.

    If you condemn these vagabond Jews for acting outside their authority, then you must also condemn your own argument.
    Personally knowing Jesus is not a requirement for receiving the Priesthood or being called to a position in the Priesthood.
    The evil spirit claimed to know both Paul and Jesus. As far as I know Paul had never met Jesus outside of the vision he had on the road to Damascus.

    The evil spirit recognized both Jesus and Paul because they both had Priesthood authority. An authority that no one can take unto themselves.

    It does not matter how much a person knows. They cannot assume this authority. It comes from God by first calling, then setting apart then ordination.

    A person could have the entire Bible memorized and have the spiritual gifts of knowledge, wisdom and understanding - and still not have Priesthood authority. They still would not be considered bishops/pastors.

    They would need to be called of God (like Aaron), set apart and ordained by the authorized servants of the Lord Jesus Christ to that position.

    The Bible does not record any woman being called of God, set apart and being ordained to any Priesthood position.
     
    #177 JesusKnowsYou, Jan 9, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
  18. 101G

    101G Member

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    GINOLJC, to all.
    First thanks for the reply, what suppose to be a reply., but thanks anyway. second, did you not read?
    the bible do support that women can preach teach and ... yes, Pastor. and it's the first Gift on the List in 1 Corinthians 12:8 "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit", which correspond with Jer 3:15, since it's Spiritual you cannot see it.

    and as for Priesthood positions, women are priest, "priestess" for all of you who still walk by the flesh.
    God is no respector of Pweson :D
    FROM GOD, YES...... got a problem with that?.
    Yes, this is true, and you're still ignorant to the truth. so nothing new there.
    First, don't put words in my mouth, I nevers said that. I asked why women was not ordained in the church when clearly
    1 Corinthians 12:28 states so? so do me a favor, if you're going to quote me quote me right. this is a warning, and the last time for that.
    if it comes from God for he choses his vessels to speak through.
    this so correct, so who are you to say woman cannot pastor? see, keep your mouth shut, because God calls and sets whom he wants apart. NOW THAT RIGHT THERE SHOULD END ANY ARGUMENT. It's God choice as to whom he calls as Pastor/Bishop.
    so you're God now? again your Ignorance shows.
    no your arguments are vain, and irreverent ....:rolleyes:


    NOW your bible cluelessness
    101G said: ↑
    now I ask you, just to see if you're read and have any understanding, is the apostle Paul a Pastor? yes or No. cain't wait to hear that answer.
    No, he was not a bishop/pastor. He had been called of God, set apart and ordained as first an Elder and then afterwards an Apostle.

    this is just what I mean, listen
    1 Corinthians 13:1 "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
    1 Corinthians 13:2 "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing".

    Just as prophecy is a gift, (which I'm sure you didn't know), Paul was a Pastor. did you see the words "understand", and "knowledge". now
    Jeremiah 3:15 "And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding". if I "GIVE" you something is it not a "GIFT?". how hard can it be to understand?.so you're in ERROR about Paul not being a Pastor.

    the rest of your respond was vain babbling which have been address before.

    so nothing you said so far has not refuited anything I have posted.


    so please come back with something worth while discussing, else just read all of my post and don't try to put words that is not mine in my mouth. thanks in the Lord Jesus name..

    PICJAG
     
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