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Fate

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by Lightkeeper, Dec 31, 2004.

  1. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    Do you believe in fate?
     
  2. Fluffy

    Fluffy A fool

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    Sometimes I want to and sometimes I dont.

    On the one hand I feel that the idea of fate completly destroys free will and so makes any form of morality obsolete. On the other hand it does give purpose to everything... and this is something that I definitely want. I think though, until I can find a way of encompassing fate along with free will, fate will stay in the box of things that I disbelieve simply because Id rather not think about the consequences of it being real.

    Can anyone think of a logical reasoning for fate being a likelyhood? I can only think that the idea of fate is spawned from humankind's inflated sense of self importance which does seem highly likely.
     
  3. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    I feel that my own will, the natural enviroment, the actions/dispositions of others, and the will of God all synergize to make things happen. Of these, I have partial control of one and only one.

    So, that does tend to put some degree of fate into the equation.
     
  4. huajiro

    huajiro Well-Known Member

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    When something really good happens to me "yes"....when something really bad happens "no"
     
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  5. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    I don't know if the notion of fate makes any form of morality obsolete. I think it can be argued that we are fated to have some kind of moral feelings or intuition based on our genes, and possibly varying from person to person. If that's fate, then fate has a conscience.
     
  6. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    Would that be considered the same as destiny?
     
  7. EightyOne

    EightyOne Member

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    I cannot believe that such a thing as "fate" or "destiny" could possibly exist. In order for "fate" to be orchestrated, I think it would be necessary that I higher being - "God" - be the one controlling each person's life. However, why would anyone want to create such elaborately complex, sentient creatures only to manipulate them like soulless puppets? The creation experiment would be much more interesting were "God" to take a hands-off approach and simply stand by as a passive observer.
     
  8. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    Unless you take the stance that the Divine is within us. Maybe an outer God is projection. If the Divine is within, there could be orchestration.
     
  9. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    I know I do not believe in accidents or coincidences. I believe we have our own will to control our own fate by our choices and preferences. I also believe that we can utilize other people to accomplish this. I believe our life is planned by a series of guideposts and if we choose another path our lives branch out to other roads and other guideposts. It is always our plan, our power, our own personal destiny.
     
  10. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Or we could all be evil demons held in check by a Pixie-imposed illusion of humanity, or ...

    "Divine" what? What we have, at best, is speculation about speculation.
     
  11. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    No​
    Fate





    God does not write anything on the foreheads of people. There is no fate that determines our future before we are born. We are responsible for what we do, for the choices we make. "Each of us will render an account for himself to God."—Romans 14:12

     
  12. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Our decisions and subsequent actions determine our fate.
     
  13. Fluffy

    Fluffy A fool

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    Unless of course there was no higher being and "fate" was simply a natural force, randomly determined but impossible to change.
     
  14. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    ND, this is one of those things we do disagree on. Our decisions and actions only have partial control over our fate (depending on our circumstances). The people who died in the tsunami, for instance, had no control over what happened. The others who will live in poverty will do so at no fault to themselves. There are innumerable factors beyond ourselves that impact our fate, and the vast majority are beyond our control...
     
  15. Fluffy

    Fluffy A fool

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    These people did have some impact over their fate. Okay they did not do anything to bring the tsunami about. But if they had left the country for somewhere further inland then they would not have died. Okay the way I worded that makes it sound like Im blaming them for being so silly as to live near the sea but you know what I mean. My point is that are fates do not necessarily have to be our FAULT. This implies that we knowingly did something to bring them about which is not always the case. Our actions can lead to our fates quite unknowingly on our part.

    Having said all that however, Id say that, if we did have a fate, then we have no impact on it whatsoever at all. All of our actions would just be the result of a million other tiny events affecting us in unknowable ways.
     
  16. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    I hate to be agreeable, but this works for me. :D
     
  17. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Hold the phone! That's an excellent point, Fluffy! You see, I do not believe in free-will for this exact idea! Let's have an example:

    If you were to toss a coin in order to acheive either heads or tails, the result could theoretically be pre-determined by applying the principles of physics, etc. For instance, the force at which you threw the coin, verses the density of the air that the coin travels through, versus the initial position of the coin, verses the elasticity of the surface that the coin bounces off of, versus the speed of the coin at the moment of impact with said surface (which is determined by the force by which it was initially thrown, and the amount of friction it undergoes as it travels through the air), etc., implies that there was only one possible outcome for that particular coin toss.

    To experiment with something like this would perhaps be near to impossible, given that a human cannot possibly replicate the inital coin toss with adequate precision, but perhaps someday we will invent a machine to do it for us.

    Anyhow, this is why I do not believe in free-will, and therefore can perhaps prescribe to a certain idea of 'fate'. I believe that we are controlled by the patterns and laws of the natural world, and that even things much more complex than a coin toss can be likewise broken down and analyzed, and the conclusion reached that there really was only one answer in the beginning.
     
  18. Simon the Cat

    Simon the Cat Member

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    Fate is a romantic concept allowing us (humans) to not get too overwhelmed that we do nothing about anthing. The idea of fate (whether you ascribe to it or not) is a construct that allows people to either let things that displease them (or in some cases please them) go (it was fate, it couldn't be helped) and move on (Ex: I was fated to have cancer -I am choosing to reacte to this fate by....) to do more positive things with their time and energies. Conversely, not believing in fate, allows for the construct that we control more than just our reaction to a given situation. I think that one of the purposes of fate is to absolve us of guilt or feelings of responsibility about some of sadder things in life.

    In the end, does this mean I believe in fate? I suppose so as it seems to be a useful tool and a good way to explain the unexplainable - much the same way faith does.

    My question is - is it easier, harder or the same to believe in fate or have faith?
     
  19. EightyOne

    EightyOne Member

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    I too had the same question. What exactly do you mean by saying the "Divine" could be within us? What would this "Divine" be, how would it function, why would it exist?

    What do you think of these verses:

    John 15:16
    ”Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.”

    The idea that the choice of coming to Christ is in our hands alone runs contrary to this verse. However, in all fairness, these words were directed specifically at the twelve apostles, so it may be a bit of a stretch to apply it to all Christians. Of course, by saying so, we then run into a problem concerning the fairness of Jesus’ actions. For him to choose these twelve would imply that they were allowed to circumvent the process of making the decision for themselves. Regardless, there are other verses that work along the same principle:

    John 6:44
    ”No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

    Ephesians 1:5
    ”Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,”

    To me, the message appears to be very explicit - no one can come to Jesus unless Yahweh draws him. Those who become the children of Christ have been predestined for this fate. To say that man has a choice in this matter seems to be in conflict with these verses.

    I suppose that most people do not like to consider these verses in this way, seeing as how they ultimately destroys Yahweh’s sense of moral justice. Basically:

    Those who accept Christ do so because Yahweh drew them to him.
    Those who reject Christ do so because Yahweh did not draw them.

    Clearly, for Yahweh to sentence anyone to eternal damnation for rejecting his son would be inexcusable. There are additional verses that are less straightforward concerning this; however, they still imply this concept of lack of choice:

    Romans 12:3
    ”For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.”

    Yahweh has given every man the measure - being the determined extent - of his faith. If one lacks the ability to have faith in the Gospel message, should it not be considered the fault of Yahweh for not giving them ability to do so? If so, their actions in no way warrant eternal condemnation.

    Romans 3:11
    ”There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.”

    It is apparent that, by default, humans are incapable of understanding and seeking the things of Yahweh. The only way they would be capable of doing so is if Yahweh imparts his knowledge to them. If he does not do so, the individual will never have the ability to grasp them.

    Jeremiah 10:23
    ”O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.”

    To say that Yahweh does not even allow men the trivial task of taking the steps that they walk, and yet places on our shoulders the incredibly important decision of choosing Christ seems rather odd to me. If I am not in control of my steps, then all the less I am in control of my decision to trust the Gospel. If Yahweh is to take control of my steps, he must surely take control of my faith.

    "Rom 8:20-21
    ”For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
    Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.”

    We have been forced into our sin nature against our own will - the reason being that I never even had the will to choose to have a sin nature at my conception. Yet Yahweh imposes it upon us all, and with it, the consequence of eternal damnation. To say that Yahweh would then only distribute redemption from this fate to only a select few is quite disturbing. This is to say that he has willfully chosen to allow billions of humans to suffer a fate they could have escaped had God only drew them to him, as John 6:44 states.
     
  20. Fluffy

    Fluffy A fool

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    I've thought about this idea for such a long time. For me, the theory that everything is predetermined (by fate if you like) because everything is based upon everything that has come before it, is watertight. Yet I hate it so much :(. For me free will is vital to my sanity... I cannot imagine how pointless the world would be if we did not have it (ironic I know because fate normally implies purpose... yet it doesnt in this sense). Yet this theory proves, for me, that we don't have such a thing. Does the idea of having no free will not distress you, Ceridwen?
     
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