Fatalism

[Heyo]

Fatalism is often connected to the religious notion that the world operates on a divine plan. Calvinists and Muslim are known for such a view. But it is also possible to be an atheist and a fatalist by determinism. Determinism is the idea that the world operates on cause and effect and every effect is already determined by the current state (no god required).

Fatalism is a seemingly logical result of determinism (secular of religious). It is the conclusion that it is useless to do something because we can't change "the plan".

I see this fatalism in the refusal to wear masks (it got to a friend of mine who did wear a mask and washed her hands - as if we didn't know the way infections happen), in the refusal to do anything against climate change (the climate has always changed, the natural influence is bigger than the man made, it wouldn't help if we do something when others don't) and in other cases where Negative Nancy displays her defeatist, no agency, no responsibility attitude.

Is it learned helplessness that leads people to such a behaviour? What is the best answer to such a negative view on life?
(I would ask fatalists to defend their position but they'd probably don't see it useful to do so.)

 

[Quintessence]

Do not mistake fatalism for apathy or defeatism. The one does not necessarily lead to the other.

 

[joe1776]

Fatalism is a seemingly logical result of determinism (secular of religious). It is the conclusion that it is useless to do something because we can't change "the plan".

You reached a different conclusion than I. As I have it, if one believes in determinism, there's no reason to do anything differently than if one doesn't believe in determinism. Therefore, although I understand that we can't tell the difference between a decision and the illusion of decision, for practical purposes, I see no point in the determinism/freewill argument.

 

[Koldo]

Fatalism is often connected to the religious notion that the world operates on a divine plan. Calvinists and Muslim are known for such a view. But it is also possible to be an atheist and a fatalist by determinism. Determinism is the idea that the world operates on cause and effect and every effect is already determined by the current state (no god required).

Fatalism is a seemingly logical result of determinism (secular of religious). It is the conclusion that it is useless to do something because we can't change "the plan".

I see this fatalism in the refusal to wear masks (it got to a friend of mine who did wear a mask and washed her hands - as if we didn't know the way infections happen), in the refusal to do anything against climate change (the climate has always changed, the natural influence is bigger than the man made, it wouldn't help if we do something when others don't) and in other cases where Negative Nancy displays her defeatist, no agency, no responsibility attitude.

Is it learned helplessness that leads people to such a behaviour? What is the best answer to such a negative view on life?
(I would ask fatalists to defend their position but they'd probably don't see it useful to do so.)

Tell whoever holds this view to sit still on the floor for the rest of their lives. After all, whatever is supposed to happen will happen, right? No need to get up and do stuff.

 

[Nakosis]

Fatalism is often connected to the religious notion that the world operates on a divine plan. Calvinists and Muslim are known for such a view. But it is also possible to be an atheist and a fatalist by determinism. Determinism is the idea that the world operates on cause and effect and every effect is already determined by the current state (no god required).

Fatalism is a seemingly logical result of determinism (secular of religious). It is the conclusion that it is useless to do something because we can't change "the plan".

I see this fatalism in the refusal to wear masks (it got to a friend of mine who did wear a mask and washed her hands - as if we didn't know the way infections happen), in the refusal to do anything against climate change (the climate has always changed, the natural influence is bigger than the man made, it wouldn't help if we do something when others don't) and in other cases where Negative Nancy displays her defeatist, no agency, no responsibility attitude.

Is it learned helplessness that leads people to such a behaviour? What is the best answer to such a negative view on life?
(I would ask fatalists to defend their position but they'd probably don't see it useful to do so.)

Fatalism is more a religious view IMO. That it doesn't matter what we humans choose to do, the outcome does not depend on a cause and effect process. "God" will either choose to save the world or condemn it. So in that I think I agree with you.

However, learned helplessness or learned hopefulness?

I'd think the important thing for the religious is to remain faithful. That would be the basis for their actions. I'd suppose you'd have to convince them that God would want them to wear masks. Good luck with that.

 

[sun rise]

There are answers to fatalism within religion. For Muslims, for example, there's this:

One of my favorite hadiths or sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), involves a camel. Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, the hadith outlines the story of a Bedouin man who was leaving his camel without tying it. The Prophet (PBUH) asked him “Why don’t you tie down your camel?” The Bedouin answered, “I put my trust in Allah.” The Prophet then replied, “Tie your camel first, and then put your trust in Allah.”

Then there's a story I don't know from where offhand. I don't remember it exactly but this is the essence: A man was drowning. Another came along and offered a rope. The drowning man said I rely on God alone. A second man came along and the same thing happened. The drowning man died and met God. He said to God "why did you not rescue me?". God said "I came as the two men and you refused my help.

The essence is "Do your best and leave the results to God".