Fat aceptance

[Aupmanyav]

Getting fat (people will laugh if I say that), but my waist size has increased. Need to exercise, need to walk.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Very good and useful and needed video

Key message:
Fooling oneself is usually not healthy

Do you apply the same principle to vaccination, which is evidenced to promote and protect good health, or only to obesity? Should people criticize and shame those who put themselves and others at risk--including by taking up hospital beds and clogging ICUs--because they refuse vaccination? And if not, then why should we treat obesity differently?

 

[Callisto]

Yeah, and I don't get why that is so hard for people to realize. There are many known health risks associated with being overweight. Joint damage, cancer, heart disease, stroke, diabetes, sleep apnea and depression have all been linked time and time again to being overweight. And we know acceptance of unhealthiness leads to bad places. Like how there used to be widespread tolerance for smoking.
But we also know shaming people tends to make things worse. So this is definitely not the route to go either because that too comes with side effects and consequences but more typically for the one being shamed.
And I absolutely despise the clothing argument. Lots of people have had to catalog order stuff and transition to online buying because stores carry averages. My brother had a hella time finding shoes big enough because he worse size a size 16. My best friend, she's a size 12 in women's shoes so she tends to wear men's shoes. Me, it's absolute nuts because because as a guy I could rarely find pants in a store that would fit and shirts never had shoulders that fit right (they'd dangle and hang off my shoulders), but when I began transitioning and shopping for women's clothes I found I have a variety of jeans to chose from and the shoulders of shirts actually sit on my shoulders like they're supposed to.
So, yeah, the clothing thing is just a struggle for lots of people because lots of people fall outside of a couple standard deviations from the center of the bellcurve of average human sizes (I feel sorry for the women who are so small they end up in the kids department).

Agreed. However, fat activists are notorious for distorting things. Though to be fair, they're not the only ones that do it, it's done in other activism too these days. Anyone or anything that is not 150% in synch with their claims is immediately branded as shaming, bullying, phobic, anti-___, etc. when often that's not remotely the case at all. All that does is put their position in doubt since any amount of variation immediately sends them off the rails. It also loses them allies, people who are inherently inclined to be supportive are given pause to become associated with them because of the rabid zealotry and the blatant distortions.

The clothing argument is just part of the absurdity of claiming to be oppressed. You're not oppressed because every store doesn't carry your size; you're not oppressed if you can readily order from catalogs and online. Hell, you can learn to sew and develop your own clothing line. It's obnoxious beyond belief when fat activists put obesity on par with being a POC or having disabilities. Sorry, but no, being overweight is not the same as being born a POC, it is not the same as someone born with disabilities or who's sustained a permanent injury. You can control your weight to whatever extent if you chose to, you can't control your blood heritage nor having been born without a limb or having suffered a brain injury.

 

[Nakosis]

Thank you Bill Maher for pointing out the obvious.

I don't think we should glorify it but I also don't think we should judge people solely on their weight.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I can so relate to that. Im 5'2 and around 120 pounds - small thing - and plane seats are fine for me, but every time I take a flight I feel so sorry for at least half the other passengers squeezed into the tiny seats. That has to be uncomfortable

I'm 6'0 and flying is prohibitively uncomfortable, especially with my bad knees. Even taking a bus I found to be vastly more comfortable, and thus better because I can still walk normal once I'm off (and it lacked the nasty TSA goons), rather than a Herman Munster sort of limp because my knees are so stiff.

 

[ChristineM]

Oh, that's not living well.
This is.
Just ask @ChristineM.

Damned yanks taking the micky, expected of course

 

[Wildswanderer]

The myth is that it's lack of diet and exercise and overindulgence that's making everyone fat.

Not everyone, but the vast majority.
The exceptions don't change the reality.

 

[VoidCat]

(I feel sorry for the women who are so small they end up in the kids department).

Im not a woman but that kids department is where I need to shop for pants. I can't even wear a size zero in women's they so large on me. All my pants are too big cuz I just haven't shopped in the kids section cuz i can't afford to get new pants.

It's worse when you consider im nonbinary and wear both men and women clothing. And I don't wear a belt cuz of trauma. Luckily my shirts are long so no one ever sees my underwear

Edit: maybe if i sell some of my clothes I might be able to get clothes that fit.

 

[stvdv]

Very good and useful and needed video

Key message:
Fooling oneself is usually not healthy

Do you apply the same principle to vaccination

Yes

I sense some kind of hostility/irritation

Why do you ask?
Has nothing to do with my post

Should people criticize and shame those who put themselves and others at risk-

Why do you ask?
Has nothing to do with my post

risk--including by taking up hospital beds and clogging ICUs--because they refuse vaccination?

Why do you ask?
Has nothing to do with my post

And if not, then why should we treat obesity differently?

Again, why do you ask?
Has nothing to do with my post

 

[Revoltingest]

That man is Brian Shaw- absolute legend among those involved in serious strength training. He’s a 4X World’s Strongest Man champion and still one of the strongest men on earth today. His fitness routine (despite a very high caloric intake) completely outclasses 99% of Americans, and probably humanity in general. Most of the size you see there is muscle sculpted onto a 6”8 frame… and the man trains day in day out to attain and maintain that kind of size and strength. He’s also chill as hell and an awesome human being.

There is a significant difference between “getting big” as result of training hard, and getting big off of sugar and fat.

Brian is trying to slim down to a mere 400# because
the events are stressing speed more than before.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Which it often is.

It does seem that way, but I am not sure it's effective. In fact, it could be increasing the problem:

"The more people are exposed to weight bias and discrimination, the more likely they are to gain weight and become obese, even if they were thin to begin with. They’re also more likely to die from any cause, regardless of their body mass index (BMI)."

Fat shaming is making people sicker and heavier

"...rather than encouraging people to lose weight, weight discrimination promotes weight gain and the onset of obesity. Implementing effective interventions to combat weight stigma and discrimination at the population level could reduce the burden of obesity."

Perceived weight discrimination and changes in weight, waist circumference, and weight status - PubMed

"This model characterizes weight stigma as a "vicious cycle" - a positive feedback loop wherein weight stigma begets weight gain. This happens through increased eating behavior and increased cortisol secretion governed by behavioral, emotional, and physiological mechanisms, which are theorized to ultimately result in weight gain and difficulty of weight loss."

Weight stigma is stressful. A review of evidence for the Cyclic Obesity/Weight-Based Stigma model - PubMed

"These findings suggest that among overweight women, exposure to weight stigmatizing material may lead to increased caloric consumption. This directly challenges the notion that pressure to lose weight in the form of weight stigma will have a positive, motivating effect on overweight individuals."

The impact of weight stigma on caloric consumption - PubMed

Even worse, stigmatizing weight seems to lead to increased depression:

"...perceived weight discrimination is potentially harmful to mental health regardless of weight."

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1038/oby.2009.131

And yet, as Mahar pointed out, obesity/over-eating is the leading cause of death in the US.

Sure, and I don't disagree with him there. He appears to think that anti-fat-shaming efforts disagree, but that doesn't appear to be the case. He suggests body positivity is "anti-science" (or something like that), but it appears more to be about taking the focus off of shaming and more on policy and using more positive language and imagery to get people on board with healthy habits.

For instance, he specifically calls out a person who he calls a "fat activist," Ted Kyle. This is from the organization Kyle is associated with:

"The 2010 expert report on Dietary Guidelines for Americans identifies obesity as “the single greatest threat to public health in this century.” The majority of Americans, two-thirds, have excess weight or obesity. The impact of the disease is growing as increasing numbers of our young people are affected. Obesity leads to poor health and diminished quality of life. Obesity-related diseases are fueling the growth in our soaring healthcare costs.Health improves when obesity is treated. Prevention strategies guided by research, not bias, are needed to reverse this harmful trend.

Yet, obesity is more often viewed as a character flaw than a health problem. The prevailing bias against people with obesity leads society and policy makers to discount medical interventions that can help people live healthier lives. The assumption that personal responsibility is the only answer has led to health policy that is costly, expensive, ineffective, and based more on bias than evidence.

And most important, research has shown that stigmatizing people with excess weight makes the problem worse. Studies demonstrate that weight bias increases the likelihood of unhealthy eating behaviors and creates barriers to physical activity.

We believe that new evidence-based tools for treatment and prevention, advocacy for sound policy, and public outreach are all essential to making progress in obesity.

ConscienHealth’s guiding principle is to connect sound science with the needs of consumers to develop obesity solutions that allow people of all sizes to be the healthiest they can be."

This is hardly anti-science, and they agree that obesity is a problem.

Having reviewed the video a second time, I still feel that Mahar is advocating for weight stigmatization (fat shaming). He links viewing "...letting yourself go as a point of pride" to "body positivity" (1:58), but that appears to be an inaccurate conclusion and that he is focusing on physical appearance rather than health. He also states that "You can get away with anything when you're young" and that "You don't see fat 90 years olds," quipping "Scary, isn't it?" (2:18ish) which focuses the attention on the physical appearance of obesity rather than the internal health of it, considering that thin young people may still be unhealthy from poor diet despite their appearances. He also, as I had mentioned earlier, evidenced his argument that we are "joyfully celebrating gluttony" by showing ads from Sports Illustrated, Victoria's Secret, and Nike that use larger models, as well as a t-shirt that says "I don't owe no man a flat stomach" (5:32). For one thing, representation is important in having a positive body image, and brands that focus on fitness (Victoria's Secret, though?) are actually being helpful in this regard (despite doing it for profit) since this may help decrease the stigma and attract folks to fitness, that it's not expected to just see thin people jogging, doing sports, or wearing lingerie. For another, this appears to be an issue skewed against women (hence the empowering t-shirt message):

"...this negative sentiment [fat jokes] extends to verbal aggression, with unchecked instances of flaming and cyberbullying against overweight individuals, particularly women."

Obesity in social media: a mixed methods analysis

So also taking into account Mahar's previous example of specifically saying we should fat-shame people (which I quoted in my previous post) I conclude that he is advocating for weight stigmatization. If he is doing so out of a concern for health, he is ignorant of the scientific literature, but I don't think this is the case. Simply researching ConscienHealth (Ted Kyle's organization) would have made the issue more complex than he states it. I would also think that this is simply a way to get ratings by calling out PC culture, but the one thing about Mahar is that he appears to be one of those comedians that really does advocate for things he believes. So I must conclude that he simply doesn't like fat people.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Agreed. However, fat activists are notorious for distorting things.

Like what?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Damned yanks taking the micky, expected of course

I just call y'all weird for having social rituals and customs and policies and procedures for a ton of things.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Yes

I sense some kind of hostility/irritation

Neither is my intention here. Rather, I'm trying to underline that if one concedes that shaming shouldn't be employed to push for one medical decision (vaccination), then the same applies to obesity and decisions related to it.

Why do you ask?
Has nothing to do with my post


Why do you ask?
Has nothing to do with my post


Why do you ask?
Has nothing to do with my post


Again, why do you ask?
Has nothing to do with my post

See above.

 

[Vee]

By the way @Vee come to the USA and look at the poison that is sold as cereal for children. Its nothing but sugar and food coloring, and it is marketed to children and their parents. Our FDA which supposedly is there to protect us from bad foods is behind it. Sometimes foods in vending machines have 'Heart healthy' stamped onto them, and they'll make you fat and sluggish. As a kid I used to love going to some small shop and ordering an inexpensive 32 oz (about 1 liter) soda and drinking that sweet madness all at once, and nobody told me it was bad for me.

I have an it's revolting. Kids don't choose, that's the job of the adults in their lives. But they pay the price - with their health

 

[Vee]

Im not a woman but that kids department is where I need to shop for pants. I can't even wear a size zero in women's they so large on me. All my pants are too big cuz I just haven't shopped in the kids section cuz i can't afford to get new pants.

It's worse when you consider im nonbinary and wear both men and women clothing. And I don't wear a belt cuz of trauma. Luckily my shirts are long so no one ever sees my underwear

Edit: maybe if i sell some of my clothes I might be able to get clothes that fit.

See if you can find someone in your area who is good with a sewing machine. You can buy clothes more or less your size and get them fixed for you.

 

[stvdv]

Neither is my intention here.

Thanks
Good to know "I sensed wrong"

Rather, I'm trying to underline that if one concedes that shaming shouldn't be employed to push for one medical decision (vaccination), then the same applies to obesity and decisions related to it.

1) Why do you "underline this to me" (as you did reply to me)?
2) Your reply has nothing to do with me nor my post, or do you think it has?

I just said:

Very good and useful and needed video

Key message:
Fooling oneself is usually not healthy.

 

[Debater Slayer]

1) Why do you "underline this to me" (as you did reply to me)?
2) Your reply has nothing to do with me nor my post, or do you think it has?

I think consistency is important when considering a topic such as this one. Either we oppose shaming people for unhealthy decisions or we don't. Selectively shaming fat people but believing we should extend courtesy to others who make unhealthy choices, such as anti-vaxxers, is inconsistent and quite problematic.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I have an it's revolting. Kids don't choose, that's the job of the adults in their lives. But they pay the price - with their health

It does get sinister in America. Like when the pork companies launched a massive campaign here that did deliberately misinform and mislead people by telling them pork is the "other white meat."
The nutritional labels are also all sorts of confusing and misleading and difficult to decipher because the laws here allow for loopholes where things can be added not claimed on the nutritional values label. Literally, it is legal in America for food companies to even label something as fat free or sugar free even though there is fat and sugar in it. Until a few years ago you could even see on the front of the box "trans fat free," read the nutritional label as see "Trans fat 0.0g," but read through the ingredients and find added trans fats.

 

[stvdv]

I think consistency is important when considering a topic such as this one. Either we oppose shaming people for unhealthy decisions or we don't. Selectively shaming fat people but believing we should extend courtesy to others who make unhealthy choices, such as anti-vaxxers, is inconsistent and quite problematic.

I am consistent in this, I do not shame others

So, my question remains, why do you tell about inconsistency to me?