1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Fascinating!

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by Deeje, Apr 20, 2019.

  1. cladking

    cladking Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    Messages:
    2,155
    Ratings:
    +317
    Ancient people understood evolution and used this understanding to create agriculture which gave rise to cities.

    We don't understand it so we plow most of the wealth of the planet into landfills.

    It's so ironic that such vast swathes of modern "science" isn't science at all but so many people can't see any of the natural truth that survives in religion.

    None of us can see reality or anomalies because we see our beliefs and models instead. Darwin's model of evolution is wrong but this doesn't stop us from misinterpreting experiment and observation.
     
  2. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    21,394
    Ratings:
    +25,921
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    Well, I think it is ultimately that they don't want to admit a kinship with apes. Since they see the differences between us and other apes as being macroevolution, one way to deny our relationship is to deny that such changes are even possible.

    Another aspect is that many don't believe in the longer time spans required for macro-level changes to occur and they also adopt the biblical idea of 'kinds' (which is never really explained) and insist change outside of a kind isn't allowed.

    Finally, I do think that many simply don't realize that you can get a million dollars one cent at a time if you accumulate for long enough.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  3. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    21,394
    Ratings:
    +25,921
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    Nope. His specific example (the EPR paradox) where he thought reality would go one way and quantum mechanics another has actually been done in the lab. The results were that QM was correct and Einstein was wrong.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,649
    Ratings:
    +8,295
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    People might have heard the stories, but as long as they have breath in them, God wants to give all people every opportunity to live the best life you could ever have...and it is not in this world.

    This world is going to "pass away" and according to the Bible, everything connected with it is going too. The way people are defying the Creator and destroying his handiwork is 'obnoxious' to him. He tells us that his patience will run out. (Revelation 11:18; Revelation 21:3-4)

    Picture Noah trying to warn the people of his day about what was going to happen. (doesn't matter if people think its allegorical)...what is the lesson?

    Not a soul took any notice of him because 1) it had never rained before the flood and 2) this "nutter" was living a completely different life to everyone else and now he was constructing a huge box out in the middle of a cleared field, telling people that their world was going to be destroyed. They laughed at him. I wonder if they were still laughing when the water began to engulf them?

    If God knew that no one was going to listen, then why did he instruct Noah to preach to them? The fact is, he was giving them an opportunity to save themselves....even though no one believed him, God still gave every person a warning before he acted, and he gave Noah an opportunity to save himself through his own efforts. If head not worked for decades constructing that vessel according to God's explicit instructions, no one would have been saved.

    Did the people think that Noah was obnoxious? Probably....

    Did Noah strap people down and force them to believe? Or did he just keep offering opportunities until time ran out? Jesus used the example of Noah's day to point forward to our time. (Matthew 24:37-39)

    If you don't want to hear the warning, then stop reading my posts. This is a forum for discussing science and religion......I am deeply interested in both. What I post is my own personal take on the issues that involve both of these important topics.
    I am a Bible believer and sharing beliefs informs people that they have choices. We all have the same choices. If you choose your path, you choose your destination.....no?

    Ignoring God has never led to a good outcome......ignoring his messengers hasn't either.....just sayin'....
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,649
    Ratings:
    +8,295
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Think about what you just said.....how many delusional people do you know personally? The majority of people living have a fairly good sense of reality....they see what everyone else sees and feel what others feel.....the commercial world depends on that.

    I can count on my sense of reality being what is common to most of us. If you want to get into the Matrix thing....that is up to you. Its nonsense to me....the stuff of sci-fi movies.

    I don't think "absolute" proof is what I was talking about. You and I both know that science is not about proving anything. With evolution, it is about suggesting what "might have" transpired millions of years ago when no one was here to document a thing. (Except the Creator and so few want to take any notice of him)

    Its about filling in the gaps with....what? Fossils? Fossils can't talk but science likes to give them a voice....does science know what they fossils are saying or do they invent the rhetoric to fit the theory? What do they base their assumptions on? Very flimsy evidence as far as I can tell. Like whale evolution for example....based on the similarity of an ear bone? Seriously?

    We both have "beliefs".....but you choose to believe what science tells you. As a "physical" man I can understand that. I prefer to rely on the Bible because I feel a deep connection to its author, and what it says resonates with me.
    You have human wisdom to rely on, whilst I rely on the Creator to tell me what he did and when. He also provides me with "why" he has done things the way he has. I find it very satisfying on so many levels....past, present and future.

    Again, the difference between a "spiritual" person and a "physical" one is the ability to see things through spiritual eyes. If you've never had that kind of vision (perception) then it is pointless trying to explain it. It would be like trying to explain color to one born blind. Its no wonder we don't understand each others position on things.
    We are aliens to one another. [​IMG] Spirituality has nothing to do with a lack of intelligence, even though this has been suggested to me a number of times by atheists.

    Its not the lack of "evidence" that is the problem....its the interpretation of that evidence that makes the difference. The way science interprets its evidence, to us makes something plausible out of something impossible. And what you think is impossible is totally plausible to Bible believers. No one is going to win this argument. Its really just about choosing your position and hoping for the best I guess.

    If we have no time for God, then it is obvious that he has no time for us. That is how I see it.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  6. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2011
    Messages:
    21,370
    Ratings:
    +9,773
    Religion:
    śrī kṛṣṇasya sevāyām - “In Lord Krishna’s service”
    By hammering away? Even over the objections of your targets? When does he tap out? I’m sure he knows that the more you push, the more you’ll push people away. Telling people there is only one right way is arrogant and offensive in the extreme.

    But this is sermonizing, preaching, evangelizing, and proselytizing.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,649
    Ratings:
    +8,295
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Yes....educated guessing....we know.

    Define "natural phenomena".

    By definition, a theory is......
    "a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.

    synonyms: hypothesis, thesis, conjecture, supposition, speculation, postulation, postulate, proposition, premise, surmise, assumption, presumption, presupposition, notion, guess, hunch, feeling, suspicion;
    opinion, view, belief, thinking, thought(s), judgement, contention."


    Changing the definition of the word "theory" to pretend that it doesn't mean that, does not give science a license to fabricate evidence to suit their supposition.

    Atheist scientists are so keen to get rid of all notion of a Creator that they will find a fossil and make up a story about its origins and its ancestors....then present it in a timeline without an ounce of solid evidence that it ever happened that way.
    Its supposition masquerading as fact.

    That is the kind of science that I object to. OK?

    Now this just makes me smile...I said...."Disproving some science is incredibly easy...most people have no idea how much of what science projects is actually hot air."

    The laws that govern nature did not write themselves IMO. I respect those laws as coming from the Creator....but I do not respect science suggesting that these laws dropped out of nowhere to govern the entire material universe. So I have no beef with factual science at all....just the theoretical sort that presents conjecture and states it as fact......when they actually invented the facts with nothing but the flimsiest excuse to suggest that its true.

    One of my favorites is whale evolution....

    "The evolution of whales

    The first thing to notice on this evogram is that hippos are the closest living relatives of whales, but they are not the ancestors of whales. In fact, none of the individual animals on the evogram is the direct ancestor of any other, as far as we know. That's why each of them gets its own branch on the family tree.


    [​IMG]
    Hippos are large and aquatic, like whales, but the two groups evolved those features separately from each other. We know this because the ancient relatives of hippos called anthracotheres (not shown here) were not large or aquatic. Nor were the ancient relatives of whales that you see pictured on this tree — such as Pakicetus. Hippos likely evolved from a group of anthracotheres about 15 million years ago, the first whales evolved over 50 million years ago, and the ancestor of both these groups was terrestrial.

    These first whales, such as Pakicetus, were typical land animals. They had long skulls and large carnivorous teeth. From the outside, they don't look much like whales at all. However, their skulls — particularly in the ear region, which is surrounded by a bony wall — strongly resemble those of living whales and are unlike those of any other mammal. Often, seemingly minor features provide critical evidence to link animals that are highly specialized for their lifestyles (such as whales) with their less extreme-looking relatives."


    The evolution of whales

    Can you read what is written there for students and tell me where the actual evidence is for whales ever being four-legged land dwellers, apart from the supposition and suggestion by science in trying to support their theory?...and look! there is an ear bone that "strongly resemble those of living whales." :rolleyes:

    Sorry but this is a load of hogwash. o_O

    Perhaps I should highlight one important point here.....I have a belief system and you guys claim not to. I have studied your 'scientific evidence' and found that it is based on nothing but assumption, assertions and suggestions.....there is no real evidence that macro-evolution is even possible.

    If you can't prove that your theory is correct, then you have what I have....."belief".
    Annoying, isn't it? :D

    I can't prove the existence of my Creator any more than science can prove that an amoeba morphed itself into a dinosaur. You want facts....there's a fact. :cool:
     
  8. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    15,223
    Ratings:
    +7,879
    Religion:
    atheist
    No, you didn't say "anything about Einstein believing in a personal, caring, human-like God". What yiou said was...
    Here's what he actually said.
    That deep emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God.
    Albert Einstein Quotes
    But the question remains, Why did you trot out Einstein to begin with? Was it to impress people with the idea that: Golly, Einstein was soooo smart and he believed God created the universe?

    If you read carefully, it does not say God created the universe.

    The fact remains that Einstein thought your version of Christianity was naive and childish. Next time you think about trotting out Einstein, you might want to remember what his superior intellect really thought.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    15,223
    Ratings:
    +7,879
    Religion:
    atheist
    Yes, people have been saying "his patience will run out" for 2000 years. But 2000 years is just an eyeblink for God. Maybe God will wait another couple of eyeblinks, so we have another 4000 years to goof off.

    Nevertheless, I guess it's time to once again remind everyone that the Founders of JW believed it was going to happen 100 years ago, and eighty years ago and forty years ago.

    I can understand people wanting to continue to believe in prophecies emanating from John and transcribed in the Bible. But to continue believing in a religion started by regular people who have been proven wrong numerous times is ludicrous.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Messages:
    12,083
    Ratings:
    +6,135
    Why do you ask these questions about evolution and repeat the same points over and over again when you know they have been addressed and answered many, many times over? It comes off as disingenuous, Deeje.
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  11. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    15,223
    Ratings:
    +7,879
    Religion:
    atheist
    YAY!
    Congratulations Deeje.


    It wasn't that long ago you were still using phrases like: "Evolution is just a theory and hasn't been proven".

    Progress should be recognized and rewarded.​

    [​IMG]
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  12. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    15,223
    Ratings:
    +7,879
    Religion:
    atheist
    Aw, Deeje. Am I going to have to take back that beautiful trophy?


    What is annoying is that you continue to try to conflate "belief" based on knowledge and experience with "belief" based on untestable superstitious tenets.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Funny Funny x 2
  13. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2018
    Messages:
    4,562
    Ratings:
    +3,928
    Define "sudden."
    Haven't seen a 'Hopeful monster' advocate in a while.
    I've seen neither. Evidence please.
    Define "suddenly", and I thought creationists argue that new dog breeds are NOT evolution?
    Not a fact. A unique individual is not a new species.
    All sounds so simple...
    What experiments? What observations? You made some assertions above, but assertions that are contrary to what we know are not actually evidence, sorry.
    Define "fit" as you understand it. Also, explain what "survival of he fittest" means as you understand it.
    Where do you get your science information from? It seems rather illegitimate.
    If you say so.
     
  14. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    15,223
    Ratings:
    +7,879
    Religion:
    atheist
    Nope. Not OK, on many levels. Your first mistake is your belief that all paleontologists are atheists. That is patently untrue.


    Robert J. Asher, Evolution and Belief: Confessions of a Religious Paleontologist, Cambridge University Press, 2012, 300pp., $24.99 (hbk), ISBN 9780521193832.

    upload_2019-5-9_11-15-58.png
    Source for above:
    https://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Belief-Confessions-Religious-Paleontologist/dp/0521193834

    Your next NOT OK comment "make up a story about its origins and its ancestors....then present it in a timeline without an ounce of solid evidence that it ever happened that way" is also false. You have nothing to base that comment on.

    When you can identify what is represented in the picture below, then others can accept your assertions. Until then, your comments are nothing more than your own ideas based on ignorance.
    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2018
    Messages:
    4,562
    Ratings:
    +3,928
    It was incomplete, to be sure. You don;t think that the modern ToE is the same as Darwin's, do you?
    Sure doesn't...
     
  16. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2018
    Messages:
    4,562
    Ratings:
    +3,928
    Why do you believe that?
    Consciousness is irrelevant, and the claim that population bottlenecks are ignore by evolutionists is, if I may say so, ignorant.
    Actually, a lot of missing links exist.
    Can you define what you think a 'missing link' is or should be and why?
    Sure, OK...:rolleyes:
     
  17. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    15,223
    Ratings:
    +7,879
    Religion:
    atheist
    That makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? Evolution is driven by the environment. If the environment doesn't change, there is no pressure to evolve. When the environment changes, life forms change or become extinct.

    Small environment changes over long time periods, like the naturally occurring warming and cooling cycles affecting different parts of the earth, bring about small adaptations. "Sudden" massive changes, like a meteor strike, bring about vast changes and extinctions.
     
  18. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2015
    Messages:
    8,091
    Ratings:
    +4,893
    Religion:
    Christian
    That’s true....but very few (compared to world population) “know” Jehovah. (John 17:3...”This means everlasting life, their coming to know You, the only True God, and the one whom You sent forth, Jesus Christ.”) Interesting that everyone ‘knows’ Jesus, but the Great Deceiver (whom most don’t even acknowledge exists) has managed to conceal from the majority the ID of the Most High. — Psalms 83:18

    It’s His Kingdom we promote.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2015
    Messages:
    8,091
    Ratings:
    +4,893
    Religion:
    Christian
    There’s very little understanding and agreement about QT.

    Mankind’s grasp of reality is not even a drop in the bucket.

    To arbitrarily say there is no Intelligence behind these interacting and cooperating laws, and their strengths, efficiencies and limits, is to deny what empirical evidence consistently reveals when integrated patterns are discovered in other fields of science.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2015
    Messages:
    8,091
    Ratings:
    +4,893
    Religion:
    Christian
    Yes, I did, and do. He thought there was a “superior reasoning power” behind it all.

    “reasoning” ...... get it?
     
Loading...