Famous Trinity Diagram

[LightofTruth]

What you're saying makes sense to me, but the question "what is the Trinty?" is a different question from "is the concept of the Trinity a self-refuting, illogical mess?"

The concept of the Trinity is a self-refuting, illogical mess. Yes.

Why anyone who would be considered an intelligent person would believe it is very odd. I mean, if you believe it, you might just as well believe any old nonsense because you have just thrown reason out the window.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The concept of the Trinity is a self-refuting, illogical mess. Yes.

Why anyone who would be considered an intelligent person would believe it is very odd. I mean, if you believe it, you might just as well believe any old nonsense because you have just thrown reason out the window.

I'm an atheist. I don't believe in the Trinity, but I also think it's only marginally more nonsensical than most other god-concepts.

 

[LightofTruth]

I'm an atheist. I don't believe in the Trinity, but I also think it's only marginally more nonsensical than most other god-concepts.

Why is the idea of an intelligent Creator nonsense?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why is the idea of an intelligent Creator nonsense?

I think your question has the potential to seriously pull this thread off track. If it's something you really want an answer to, feel free to create a new thread and tag me.

 

[LightofTruth]

I think your question has the potential to seriously pull this thread off track. If it's something you really want an answer to, feel free to create a new thread and tag me.

Okay, thanks. I just wanted to stress the fact that three persons being one God is totally illogical, contradictory and nonsense. But the idea of an intelligent Creator, I don't think is that way.

The scripture says that the Father is the God of His son Jesus. If Jesus were God then he would not have a God. But he does.

 

[LightofTruth]

Some people can't or won't accept the truth that God is not a trinity. So, what they have done is to claim that Jesus has a God in his human nature but not in his God nature. Which makes Jesus to be two persons rather than one person. One person cannot claim to have a God and at the same time be the God he claims to have. It's a direct contradiction, and it amazes me how intelligent people can fall for such nonsense.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Okay, thanks. I just wanted to stress the fact that three persons being one God is totally illogical, contradictory and nonsense.

Interesting. I don't see that aspect of the Trinity as nonsense.

If a religion wants to call a committee of three magical beings "God" as opposed to calling a single magical being "God," that's fine by me - it's internally consistent within their belief system (and this is roughly the LDS Church's approach).

The issue with Trinitarianism is that it says that not only is the "committee" as a whole God, but also that each individual member of the "committee" is wholly God in their own right and not a component of a larger thing that gets called "God."

To me, if you have three persons and each person is a whole god and not part of a god, then you have three gods, not one.

But the idea of an intelligent Creator, I don't think is that way.

I figured. If you thought it was nonsense, you wouldn't believe in it.

The scripture says that the Father is the God of His son Jesus. If Jesus were God then he would not have a God. But he does.

I have no issue with that aspect of it. An omnipotent god having a god himself doesn't create any special issues as far as I can tell (or rather, no issues that aren't inherent in a single omnipotent god): if God can do anything, then why could God father another god? Or why couldn't God worship another god?

My issue with the Trinity specifically is really just with its assertion that three equals one. Other than that, I don't have any issues with triune gods other than the issues I have with gods in general.

It's just that "1 + 1 + 1 = 1" is really the only thing that distinguishes trinitarianism from either actual monotheism or tritheism, so having a problem with this aspect means having an issue with the concept of the Trinity as a whole.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Some people can't or won't accept the truth that God is not a trinity. So, what they have done is to claim that Jesus has a God in his human nature but not in his God nature. Which makes Jesus to be two persons rather than one person. One person cannot claim to have a God and at the same time be the God he claims to have. It's a direct contradiction, and it amazes me how intelligent people can fall for such nonsense.

How is that a "direct contradiction?"

I get that it doesn't reconcile with your belief system, but I don't see how it's contradictory in and of itself for God to worship himself.

Edit: it seems like you're taking issue with the idea that Jesus is God, but this isn't unique to Trinitarianism.

 

[LightofTruth]

Interesting. I don't see that aspect of the Trinity as nonsense.

If a religion wants to call a committee of three magical beings "God" as opposed to calling a single magical being "God," that's fine by me - it's internally consistent within their belief system (and this is roughly the LDS Church's approach).

The issue with Trinitarianism is that it says that not only is the "committee" as a whole God, but also that each individual member of the "committee" is wholly God in their own right and not a component of a larger thing that gets called "God."

To me, if you have three persons and each person is a whole god and not part of a god, then you have three gods, not one.


I figured. If you thought it was nonsense, you wouldn't believe in it.


I have no issue with that aspect of it. An omnipotent god having a god himself doesn't create any special issues as far as I can tell (or rather, no issues that aren't inherent in a single omnipotent god): if God can do anything, then why could God father another god? Or why couldn't God worship another god?

My issue with the Trinity specifically is really just with its assertion that three equals one. Other than that, I don't have any issues with triune gods other than the issues I have with gods in general.

It's just that "1 + 1 + 1 = 1" is really the only thing that distinguishes trinitarianism from either actual monotheism or tritheism, so having a problem with this aspect means having an issue with the concept of the Trinity as a whole.

The issue you have is the same issue I have. 1+1+1=1 is false in any language. And that's just the basic wrongness with the Trinity concept. I'm taking it a little further by saying that three people who are ONE GOD cannot have one of those persons be the God of the other.

Is Jesus the God of his Father?
Is the Holy Spirit the God of the Father?
Is the Father the God of the Holy Spirit?

No, the Scripture only says that the Father is the God of Jesus. It nowhere says that the Holy Spirit is the Father or God of Jesus even though Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit in the womb of his mother Mary.
If the Holy Spirit was a separate person from the Father then it would make sense that the Holy Spirit would be the Father of Jesus and not the Father.

If the Father is a person who is the ONE GOD it means 1=1. And if the Father is the God of Jesus, who is another person, and Jesus is that same God, you have 1+1=1

All I'm saying is that Jesus cannot have a God (1) and be the same God (2) who is his God.

Again, if two persons worships each other as God, then you still have 1+1=1. totally false.

 

[LightofTruth]

How is that a "direct contradiction?"

I get that it doesn't reconcile with your belief system, but I don't see how it's contradictory in and of itself for God to worship himself.

Edit: it seems like you're taking issue with the idea that Jesus is God, but this isn't unique to Trinitarianism.

It's a direct contradiction because even in Trinitarianism "ONE GOD' is numerical ONE(1) as opposed to THREE GODS (3). So, if there is only ONE(1) GOD, then that ONE(1) GOD could not have another(1) who is his God.

 

[LightofTruth]

Even if a Trinitarian claims that ONE GOD means a unity of three persons, you still have only one (1) numerical God. Therefore, a ONE (1) numerical could not have another to be his God. That breaks the unity of only one God concept.

 

[Muffled]

What you're saying makes sense to me, but the question "what is the Trinty?" is a different question from "is the concept of the Trinity a self-refuting, illogical mess?"

I believe it depends on whose concept you are reading. Mine makes Sense.

 

[Muffled]

I'm not saying that, but thanks for playing.

I believe I can commiserate. I have trouble saying what I mean sometimes also.

 

[Super Universe]

God created Himself then He created the Eternal Son, the God and the Son formed Spirit. They are three different beings.

The Eternal Son is not Jesus.

You are to worship only God, not the Eternal Son, not Spirit, and not Jesus.

 

[Muffled]

first thanks for the reply.
I see only one person, the Holy Spirit who holds the titles, "Father" without flesh and bone, and the title, "Son" with flesh and bone, but in the natural states of being G2758 κενόω kenoo, per scripture Phil 2:6 & 7.

in that G2758 κενόω kenoo state he is the equal "share" of himself while in that state. by being shared, that's the maintaining of the ONE ONLY PERSON. clearly this is defined by scripture, Isaiah 63:5 and Isaiah 53:1-14.

so as the G3875 παράκλητος parakletos, he is the only one who is now glorified in a body that by his Spirit fills both heaven and earth.

PICJAG.

I believe you have to see the context of that verse. There is no share as though God has portions. God is always equal to Himself. What the verse is saying is that God does not need to manifest all His attributes while in the body. So He is Lord but in the body He is servant.

I don't believe that works. Jesus is still glorified in a body and is not the Paraclete.

 

[Muffled]

God created Himself then He created the Eternal Son, the God and the Son formed Spirit. They are three different beings.

The Eternal Son is not Jesus.

You are to worship only God, not the Eternal Son, not Spirit, and not Jesus.

I believe you are totally confused and definitely not Bible based. BTW the Urantia book has a lot of misinformation in it.

 

[Super Universe]

I believe you are totally confused and definitely not Bible based. BTW the Urantia book has a lot of misinformation in it.

You believe I'm confused? I'm sure you do. Go worship your old book and take orders from your preacher man and fill his pockets with your money because that's what God wants.

Everything I said is in the bible, you just don't understand it.

The UB has misinformation in it? But the book written by ignorant humans who were afraid of comets is much better?

You want it to be about you. God, the creator of the universe did it for you. Sorry, He didn't do it for you. You're not the least bit important. You're an ant.

 

[101G]

I believe you have to see the context of that verse. There is no share as though God has portions. God is always equal to Himself. What the verse is saying is that God does not need to manifest all His attributes while in the body. So He is Lord but in the body He is servant.

I don't believe that works. Jesus is still glorified in a body and is not the Paraclete.

first thanks for the reply, second, it's the portion, and not portion(s). for another word for portion is "Share", which is "Equally", (as per Phil 2:6), in Nature.

and yes, "God is always equal to Himself", as ONE PERSON, hence the share, or as the Greels identify this equal sharing... G243 Allos.

and he is both Lord and GOD. per John 20:28, for he never STOP being God in NATURE.

you said, "Jesus is not the Paraclete". we beg to differ, 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"

advocate: G3875 παράκλητος parakletos (pa-ra'-klee-tos) n.
1. (properly) one called near (to give help).
2. an intercessor (one who entreats of behalf of another).
3. a comforter.
[(not given)]
KJV: advocate, comforter
Root(s): G3844, G2822
See also: G3874


Paraclete: (in Christian theology) the Holy Spirit as advocate or counselor (John 14:16, 26). well we just showed you in 1 John 2:1

and as counselor, Luke chapter 2



PICJAG

 

[Muffled]

You believe I'm confused? I'm sure you do. Go worship your old book and take orders from your preacher man and fill his pockets with your money because that's what God wants.

Everything I said is in the bible, you just don't understand it.

The UB has misinformation in it? But the book written by ignorant humans who were afraid of comets is much better?

You want it to be about you. God, the creator of the universe did it for you. Sorry, He didn't do it for you. You're not the least bit important. You're an ant.

I believe I don't see that as a productive thing to do. We have different beliefs.

I believe it makes a lot of sense to support the person who works for me and God.

I believe I always do what God wants.

i believe you are incorrect. I understand the Bible better than anyone because the Holy Spirit is my guide.

I believe a book that is God inspired is eminently better than a book written from the thoughts of men.

I believe he said he pays attention to the hairs on my head. The cross tells me how much He loves me.

 

[Muffled]

first thanks for the reply, second, it's the portion, and not portion(s). for another word for portion is "Share", which is "Equally", (as per Phil 2:6), in Nature.

and yes, "God is always equal to Himself", as ONE PERSON, hence the share, or as the Greels identify this equal sharing... G243 Allos.

and he is both Lord and GOD. per John 20:28, for he never STOP being God in NATURE.

you said, "Jesus is not the Paraclete". we beg to differ, 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"

advocate: G3875 παράκλητος parakletos (pa-ra'-klee-tos) n.
1. (properly) one called near (to give help).
2. an intercessor (one who entreats of behalf of another).
3. a comforter.
[(not given)]
KJV: advocate, comforter
Root(s): G3844, G2822
See also: G3874


Paraclete: (in Christian theology) the Holy Spirit as advocate or counselor (John 14:16, 26). well we just showed you in 1 John 2:1

and as counselor, Luke chapter 2



PICJAG

I believe I do not have the physical body of Jesus in me. And since there is only One Spirit of God the Paraclete does share the Father and Jesus but there is a distinction.