Ah - so you were asking a loaded question.
Edit: neither diagram reflects the actual doctrine of the Trinity.
-
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Famous Trinity Diagram
- Thread starter rrobs
- Start date
Edit: neither diagram reflects the actual doctrine of the Trinity.
rrobs
Well-Known Member
Yeah. I guess I was being a wise guy.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe you ought to try to prove that, lol.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Well, I think you are neither right nor wrong depending on how one wishes to view it.
Just kidding...
I believe I am usually right from God's point of view and anyone else's doesn't bother me.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe yo are in error because my point is that the sun can't be like God because it doesn't have intelligence as God does.
Skwim
Veteran Member
How do you know?
How would someone go about actually confirming that the Sun isn't intelligent?
You will have to follow the post back to why the comment was made. The OP had no details, no image uploaded and the suggestion was that the Metephor of the Sun refelecting from a mirror could be a better anology.
As such your comment made absolute no sense in that context and it Is still not applicable to what was being discussed.
Stay happy Muffled, Regards Tony
rrobs
Well-Known Member
Yes, we stand approved before God, not man
1Cor 4:3-4,
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
I trust you did see I was kidding before. I have no doubt but that you are the apple of God's eye! Me too! Yeah us!
Muffled
Jesus in me
The fact that I gave you something to respond to proves I was thinking.
.
I believe I can have things come out of my mouth without thinking so I suspect you can write something on the same basis.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Yes, we stand approved before God, not man
1Cor 4:3-4,
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
I trust you did see I was kidding before. I have no doubt but that you are the apple of God's eye! Me too! Yeah us!
I believe I am reminded of Balaam who seemed to be ok with God but then did not follow instructions. I hope to see you in the New Jerusalem but you do need to follow instructions to get there.
Skwim
Veteran Member
rrobs
Well-Known Member
I'll be there! As per Romans 10:9-10, I confessed Jesus as my lord and believed God raised him from the dead. At that moment I was born again, not of incorruptible seed, but of incorruptible seed (1 Peter 1:23). I was sealed with that holy spirit of promise (Eph 1:13-14 & Eph 4:30 & 2 Cor 12 - check out the word "sealed" - it's pretty good). Indeed, as far as God is concerned, He chose us in Him before the world was created (Eph 1:4) and has already raised us up together to sit with Him (Eph 2:6). What a fantastic truth! How could any Christian who really believes God's word ever have a bad day?
I believe our savior was a complete savior. When he uttered his last words, "it is finished," he meant exactly that, our redemption was finished. I feel bad for many Christians who must think that Jesus didn't really finish the job, that it is up to them to secure their salvation. It must be nerve racking to always wonder if they've gone over the sin limit. I know 1 John tells us that we do sin (1 John 1:8) but that if we confess or admit to those sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us and cleans us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).
I think one's walk is infinitely more dynamic when good works are done out of love rather than out of fear of loosing one's redemption. The joy that the confident Christian has just oozes out and others can not fail to see it and ask, "why are you always so darn happy?"
By the way, as you may already know, Balaam was not born again of incorruptible seed, sealed with the holy spirit of promise, chosen by God before the world was created, nor raised up to sit with God in heavenly places. The new birth was not available until Jesus rose from the dead. It's always good to remember that when studying the OT, including the gospels. The new birth was not available until the day of Pentecost in the Book of Acts. I find not understanding that causes much confusion for too many Christians who forget (or never knew) Paul's admonition in Galatians 3:1-3.
God bless.
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101G
Well-Known Member
GINOLJC, to all.
Addressing the OP only. not saying that your Diagram is correct or not. but where do the Bible seperate the Holy Spirit from his Titles of Father and Son? example, your doctrine of the trinity states the Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father correct, they are suppose to be separate and distinct persons correct, if so I have a question.
Question, "is the Person in John 1:3, the Word, the Son, the Lord Jesus, is he the same person in Isaiah 44:24 who, "MADE ALL THINGS", as stated in both verses, yes, or no?
please note: in Isaiah 44:24 the person there states that he was "ALONE", and "BY HIMSELF", when he MADE ALL THINGS, meaning he didn't go through anyone else to MAKE ALL THINGS.
so is this the same "Person" in both Scriptures, who "MADE ALL THINGS?".
thanks in advance for your response.
PICJAG.
rrobs
Well-Known Member
I do not believe in the trinity. I posted that diagram to show how it is absolutely flawed and not a good way to make one's case for the trinity. In fact, I see no way at all for anyone to make a case for the trinity unless they draw on Greek philosophy and Egyptian mysticism. It is certainly not in the scriptures.
God alone created the universe. Furthermore, the "word" of John was just that, the word. It is the Greek word logos which includes the thoughts in the speakers head as they spoke. It can be thought of as a plan. John 1:1 is simply saying God had a plan in the beginning. That plan would be His plan of redemption. That plan included Jesus, but Jesus was not actually born until he was born. He was not physically with God in the beginning. He was only in God's mind. But so were we.
Eph 1:4,
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
No Christian actually existed at that time. We were just in God's foreknowledge. The same with Jesus. The scriptures say in many places that Jesus had a beginning. That beginning, like everybody else's beginning was the day they were born.
To accept that Jesus existed before his birth, requires that we believe Plato's immortal soul. That of course is exactly the lie the devil told Eve in the garden, "ye shall not surely die."
John 1:14 simply says that the plan came into actual concretion the day Jesus was born. The scriptures can say that the word became flesh because Jesus was an absolutely perfect representation of that plan. He followed the plan to every last jot and tittle. If he had disobeyed God in one little point, he would not have been the lamb without blemish required for our redemption. He was tempted just like us, and he was perfectly capable of sinning. He simply chose not to do so, not even one time in his entire 30+ years. Quite an accomplishment, I'd say.
Making him God completely minimizes his true accomplishment on our behalf. After all, would anybody expect God to sin? Of course not. It would have been nothing for God to remain sinless. But for a man to remain sinless is beyond extraordinary. We must remember that Jesus was tempted in ALL points just like every other human being. If he thought he was God, his temptation would be nothing at all like our temptation. I sure don't have any consciousness that I am God when I am tempted. Neither did Jesus. I give Jesus infinitely more credit and devotion than would be possible for any Trinitarian or anyone who believes Jesus is God.
101G
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply, some of what you said I can agree with, but some I disagree wiith. but the point I was making is the the Titles of "Father" and "Son" are just that titles, and not separate persons. but are the titles of only one person. thank god you see it's not a trinity
Be blessed,
PICJAG.
Hi @rrobs
I like some of the points you've made and ironically, I like some of the points your detractors have made.
Are you familiar with Henotheism? For example, historians like to point out that Israel evolved in their beliefs, at one point being polytheistic, and at other times, henotheistic, and finally, purely monotheistic. While it seems that the monotheistic Israelites had the most influence in the editing of the later Old Testament Texts, what if you try plugging the Henotheistic Israels model into the debate and see if the model it creates will not offer some degree of consistency to the debate as to the nature of a Christian trinity.
If you remember, Henothism is not strict polytheism, and though it is monotheism, it is not strict monotheism. Such a model allows God the Father to be the God over all other beings that can be called "God-Like" (or like God) such as Jesus, yet allows them to be separate individuals from God the Father. Early Jewish Documents such as the 4q thanksgiving scrolls from dead sea fit into this model fairly well since these Jews describe other beings that are like God. If the early Jewish Christians held to a henotheistic context, then such a model settles many of the controversies regarding How ONLY God the Father is "God of Gods" and over all other beings, yet it allows Jesus his own divinity.
Anyway, you might want to consider the earlier "Jewish" model of Henotheism and see if that results in new thoughts.
In any case, Good luck in your own spiritual Journey rrobs.
Clear
τωφυσιειω
I like some of the points you've made and ironically, I like some of the points your detractors have made.
Are you familiar with Henotheism? For example, historians like to point out that Israel evolved in their beliefs, at one point being polytheistic, and at other times, henotheistic, and finally, purely monotheistic. While it seems that the monotheistic Israelites had the most influence in the editing of the later Old Testament Texts, what if you try plugging the Henotheistic Israels model into the debate and see if the model it creates will not offer some degree of consistency to the debate as to the nature of a Christian trinity.
If you remember, Henothism is not strict polytheism, and though it is monotheism, it is not strict monotheism. Such a model allows God the Father to be the God over all other beings that can be called "God-Like" (or like God) such as Jesus, yet allows them to be separate individuals from God the Father. Early Jewish Documents such as the 4q thanksgiving scrolls from dead sea fit into this model fairly well since these Jews describe other beings that are like God. If the early Jewish Christians held to a henotheistic context, then such a model settles many of the controversies regarding How ONLY God the Father is "God of Gods" and over all other beings, yet it allows Jesus his own divinity.
Anyway, you might want to consider the earlier "Jewish" model of Henotheism and see if that results in new thoughts.
In any case, Good luck in your own spiritual Journey rrobs.
Clear
τωφυσιειω
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rrobs
Well-Known Member
You always have some interesting input. I had not heard of the term Henotheism before, although I am in total agreement with the concept. Just never had a label for it. For the record, here is what Wiki says about it:
"Henotheism is the worship of a single god while not denying the existence or possible existence of other deities."
Assuming that to be the true definition of Henotheism, I think that it is not not necessary to go outside of the scriptures to see that there are in fact many other gods besides Yahweh, the Father. I've quoted 1 Corinthians 8:6 several times, but never the immediately preceding it. It confirms Henotheism.
1Cor 8:5-6,
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
I think most of the modern Church doctrine does not recognize the truth that there are many gods. They appear to think that the word "god" is reserved for one and only one person. Apparently, for whatever reason, they don't really believe 1 Corinthians 8:5 (and other verses), thereby assuming that every time the scriptures mention "god" it can only refer to Yahweh.6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
It is thought that since Jesus is called god, he must be Yahweh, all the while not even considering that the commonly accepted meaning of the word "god" in the modern West may not be how the scriptures define the word. Even the most basic research tool, Strong's Concordance shows the word does not always refer to the one true God. It was not thought out of bounds for the Roman emperor to be considered a god. Why? Because of the power and authority he wielded, which power and authority is all they required to be considered a god. It is uber simple, the polar opposite of the trinity.
Thanks for the input and for pointing out a new word for me, Henotheism. Good to know.
Take care.
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POST ONE OF TWO
Hi @rrobs;
While I have interesting points, you have wonderful depth and good insight. I think you might have the better deal.
Whoever wrote the Wiki definition gave a “soft” definition of henotheism by saying Henotheism doesn’t deny the possibility of other Gods. However, the “hard” definition of henotheism is that there are multiple beings called “Gods”, but ONE is over all others in might and authority and only that one receives honor and worship as the God of Gods. In this way it is classified as a type of monotheism.
It was Budge, the Great Egyptologist who first pointed out the principle that Egypt (who had many divine beings the translators called “Gods” – it was the best word we had at the time) was essentially monotheism for most of its history since they had a LORD GOD who was always over all other beings that were called “gods”. He directed others and had no director himself. This distinction is important since this concept underlies the ancient Judao-Christian texts that speak so often about “Gods” and the “Godlike” and yet still remain essentially monotheistic in their context.
For example, in the Jewish-Christian Apocalypse of Abraham, when Abraham discovers the true God, he hears the voice of God : “Abraham, Abraham!” And I said, “Here I am.” And he said, “You are searching for the God of gods, the creator, in the understanding of your heart. I am he. (Apoc of Abr 8:1-4
This principle and language is virtually woven into the language of the Dead Sea Scrolls. For examples :
“You are chief of the gods and king of the Glorious, Lord of every spirit and Ruler of every creature. Apart from you nothing is done, nor is there any knowing without your will. There is no one beside you and no one approaches you in strength. No one can compare to your glory.” (THANKSGIVING PSALMS - 1QH, 1Q35, 4Q 427–432)
“You have humbled the gods from the foundation” THANKSGIVING PSALMS - 1QH, 1Q35, 4Q 427–432
“He will send eternal support to the company of his redeemed by the power of the majestic angel of the authority of Michael…to exalt the authority of Michael among the Gods and the dominion of Israel among all flesh. THE WAR SCROLL 1QM, 4Q491-496 )
Such texts speak of men as the “righteous ones among the gods of…in the holy habitation.” (THE WAR SCROLL 1QM, 4Q491-496)
The Henotheism of early Judao-Christianity involved the tradition where many divine beings existed that were like the Lord God despite never equaling the LORD God, who was over all other beings. It is in such a context that the writer of Exodus is able to exclaim : “Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders? Ex 15:11".
The doctrinal language that reflects this belief of God as a “LORD among the gods” is woven throughout much of the early literature. This is an important historical context underlying early Judao-Christian thought which allows ancient texts and principles to make wonderful sense. This concept also allows for and explains much of the apparent tension between scriptures that seem to indicate Jesus had a God that he worshiped, yet was, somehow, a God, a divine being, himself.
The concept of monotheistic henotheism relieves much of the tension between the competing models of the trinity and answers such questions as how Jesus can be a God while he also has a God while remaining a monotheistic model.
If I could quote from other Christian and Jewish texts the point becomes more obvious.
For example : “.... he will magnify the God of all the divine beings who are appointed for righteousness seven times with seven worlds of wondrous exaltation.” (4Q403 frag ` Col.1)
“Praise the most high God, you who are exalted among all the wise divine beings. Let those who are holy among the godlike sanctify the glorious King, He who sanctifies by His holiness each of His holy ones. You princes of praise among all the godlike, praise the God of majestic praise. Surely the glory of His kingdom resides in praiseworthy splendor; therein are held the praises of all the godlike…Lift his exaltation on high, you godlike among the exalted divine beings -His glorious divinity above all the highest heavens. Surely He is the utterly divine over all the exalted princes, King of kings over all the eternal councils.” (SONGS OF THE SABBATH SACRIFICE, 4Q400-407, 11Q17, Masada Fragment)
“…, you godlike beings of utter holiness; rejoice in his divine kingdom. For He has established utter holiness among the eternally holy, that they might become for Him priests of the inner sanctum in His royal temple, ministers of the Presence in His glorious innermost chamber. In the congregation of all the wise godlike beings, and in the councils of all the divine spirits, He has engraven his precepts to govern all spiritual works and his glorious laws for all the wise divine beings, that sage congregation honored by God, those who draw near to knowledge….eternal, and from the font of holiness to the temple of utter holiness…priests who draw near, ministers of the Presence of the utterly holy King…His glory. Precept by precept they shall grow strong, to be seven eternal councils; for He established them for Himself to be the most holy of those who minister in the Holy of Holies…They shall become mighty thereby in accordance with the council…the Holy of Holies, priests of …these are the princes of …who take their stand in the temples of the king… (4Q400-407, 11Q17, Masada Fragment)
“The song for the second Sabbath, contains a similar description of Godlike beings worshiping the “King of the godlike beings”, that is, the Lord God. : priestly angels and compare the poor quality of human worship in comparison of that of the angels”) –
“wonderfully to praise Your glory among the wise divine beings, extolling Your kingdom among the utterly holy. They are honored in all the camps of the godlike beings and feared by those who direct human affairs, wondrous beyond other divine beings and humans alike….They sing wonderful psalms according to their insights throughout the highest heaven, and declare the surpassing glory of the King of the godlike beings in the stations of their habitation….
“the king of the godlike beings…when they come with the godlike beings of …together for all of their assemblies…their might for all the powerful warriors…for all the rebellious councils.” (THE SONGS OF THE SABBATH SACRIFICE, 4Q400-407, 11Q17, Masada Fragment)
It is apparent from these doctrines that, though multiple beings are "like God" in some important way (i.e. “God- like” or "divine"), they are never equals to the Lord God and are always subordinate to him; all of them are at HIS command and none of them have the level of knowledge that he has. Such a concept explains and makes logical the fact that Jesus and the Holy Spirit did not know what God the Father knew (in your “Why didn’t the spirit know” thread), yet texts indicate Jesus is “a” God.
For example : “Surely the weapons of warfare belong to the God of divine beings…the armies of heaven and the wonder of all the divine spirits shall run at His command… But the victory shall belong to the God of divine beings. To the King of the wise godlike beings belong all matters of knowledge; indeed the God of knowledge causes all that happens forever. ..None of the divine beings understand what he has designed. (THE SONGS OF THE SABBATH SACRIFICE, 4Q400-407, 11Q17, Masada Fragment )
As you already correctly reminded us, Paul seems to use this same principle of subordinance : "For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (Corinthians 8:5-6).
Whether there are many Gods or not, the position of LORD God, the Father of all, is singular. Regarding the “wise divine beings” it is said that “They neither run from the ‘Way nor reverence any thing not a part of it; they consider themselves neither too exalted for his realm nor too humble for his commissions." (THE SONGS OF THE SABBATH SACRIFICE, 4Q400-407, 11Q17, Masada Fragment). Despite their divinity bestowed upon them and the wisdom they have gained, they are still all subject to the Lord God.
Still, they are honored to the extent that they are Godlike in morals and knowledge and dishonored to the extent that they are like Lucifer.
“ Bless the God of the godlike beings, you who inhabit the highest heaven…knowledge of the eternal godlike beings“ (THE SONGS OF THE SABBATH SACRIFICE, 4Q400-407, 11Q17, Masada Fragment)
POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
Hi @rrobs;
While I have interesting points, you have wonderful depth and good insight. I think you might have the better deal.
Whoever wrote the Wiki definition gave a “soft” definition of henotheism by saying Henotheism doesn’t deny the possibility of other Gods. However, the “hard” definition of henotheism is that there are multiple beings called “Gods”, but ONE is over all others in might and authority and only that one receives honor and worship as the God of Gods. In this way it is classified as a type of monotheism.
It was Budge, the Great Egyptologist who first pointed out the principle that Egypt (who had many divine beings the translators called “Gods” – it was the best word we had at the time) was essentially monotheism for most of its history since they had a LORD GOD who was always over all other beings that were called “gods”. He directed others and had no director himself. This distinction is important since this concept underlies the ancient Judao-Christian texts that speak so often about “Gods” and the “Godlike” and yet still remain essentially monotheistic in their context.
For example, in the Jewish-Christian Apocalypse of Abraham, when Abraham discovers the true God, he hears the voice of God : “Abraham, Abraham!” And I said, “Here I am.” And he said, “You are searching for the God of gods, the creator, in the understanding of your heart. I am he. (Apoc of Abr 8:1-4
This principle and language is virtually woven into the language of the Dead Sea Scrolls. For examples :
“You are chief of the gods and king of the Glorious, Lord of every spirit and Ruler of every creature. Apart from you nothing is done, nor is there any knowing without your will. There is no one beside you and no one approaches you in strength. No one can compare to your glory.” (THANKSGIVING PSALMS - 1QH, 1Q35, 4Q 427–432)
“You have humbled the gods from the foundation” THANKSGIVING PSALMS - 1QH, 1Q35, 4Q 427–432
“He will send eternal support to the company of his redeemed by the power of the majestic angel of the authority of Michael…to exalt the authority of Michael among the Gods and the dominion of Israel among all flesh. THE WAR SCROLL 1QM, 4Q491-496 )
Such texts speak of men as the “righteous ones among the gods of…in the holy habitation.” (THE WAR SCROLL 1QM, 4Q491-496)
The Henotheism of early Judao-Christianity involved the tradition where many divine beings existed that were like the Lord God despite never equaling the LORD God, who was over all other beings. It is in such a context that the writer of Exodus is able to exclaim : “Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders? Ex 15:11".
The doctrinal language that reflects this belief of God as a “LORD among the gods” is woven throughout much of the early literature. This is an important historical context underlying early Judao-Christian thought which allows ancient texts and principles to make wonderful sense. This concept also allows for and explains much of the apparent tension between scriptures that seem to indicate Jesus had a God that he worshiped, yet was, somehow, a God, a divine being, himself.
The concept of monotheistic henotheism relieves much of the tension between the competing models of the trinity and answers such questions as how Jesus can be a God while he also has a God while remaining a monotheistic model.
If I could quote from other Christian and Jewish texts the point becomes more obvious.
For example : “.... he will magnify the God of all the divine beings who are appointed for righteousness seven times with seven worlds of wondrous exaltation.” (4Q403 frag ` Col.1)
“Praise the most high God, you who are exalted among all the wise divine beings. Let those who are holy among the godlike sanctify the glorious King, He who sanctifies by His holiness each of His holy ones. You princes of praise among all the godlike, praise the God of majestic praise. Surely the glory of His kingdom resides in praiseworthy splendor; therein are held the praises of all the godlike…Lift his exaltation on high, you godlike among the exalted divine beings -His glorious divinity above all the highest heavens. Surely He is the utterly divine over all the exalted princes, King of kings over all the eternal councils.” (SONGS OF THE SABBATH SACRIFICE, 4Q400-407, 11Q17, Masada Fragment)
“…, you godlike beings of utter holiness; rejoice in his divine kingdom. For He has established utter holiness among the eternally holy, that they might become for Him priests of the inner sanctum in His royal temple, ministers of the Presence in His glorious innermost chamber. In the congregation of all the wise godlike beings, and in the councils of all the divine spirits, He has engraven his precepts to govern all spiritual works and his glorious laws for all the wise divine beings, that sage congregation honored by God, those who draw near to knowledge….eternal, and from the font of holiness to the temple of utter holiness…priests who draw near, ministers of the Presence of the utterly holy King…His glory. Precept by precept they shall grow strong, to be seven eternal councils; for He established them for Himself to be the most holy of those who minister in the Holy of Holies…They shall become mighty thereby in accordance with the council…the Holy of Holies, priests of …these are the princes of …who take their stand in the temples of the king… (4Q400-407, 11Q17, Masada Fragment)
“The song for the second Sabbath, contains a similar description of Godlike beings worshiping the “King of the godlike beings”, that is, the Lord God. : priestly angels and compare the poor quality of human worship in comparison of that of the angels”) –
“wonderfully to praise Your glory among the wise divine beings, extolling Your kingdom among the utterly holy. They are honored in all the camps of the godlike beings and feared by those who direct human affairs, wondrous beyond other divine beings and humans alike….They sing wonderful psalms according to their insights throughout the highest heaven, and declare the surpassing glory of the King of the godlike beings in the stations of their habitation….
“the king of the godlike beings…when they come with the godlike beings of …together for all of their assemblies…their might for all the powerful warriors…for all the rebellious councils.” (THE SONGS OF THE SABBATH SACRIFICE, 4Q400-407, 11Q17, Masada Fragment)
It is apparent from these doctrines that, though multiple beings are "like God" in some important way (i.e. “God- like” or "divine"), they are never equals to the Lord God and are always subordinate to him; all of them are at HIS command and none of them have the level of knowledge that he has. Such a concept explains and makes logical the fact that Jesus and the Holy Spirit did not know what God the Father knew (in your “Why didn’t the spirit know” thread), yet texts indicate Jesus is “a” God.
For example : “Surely the weapons of warfare belong to the God of divine beings…the armies of heaven and the wonder of all the divine spirits shall run at His command… But the victory shall belong to the God of divine beings. To the King of the wise godlike beings belong all matters of knowledge; indeed the God of knowledge causes all that happens forever. ..None of the divine beings understand what he has designed. (THE SONGS OF THE SABBATH SACRIFICE, 4Q400-407, 11Q17, Masada Fragment )
As you already correctly reminded us, Paul seems to use this same principle of subordinance : "For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (Corinthians 8:5-6).
Whether there are many Gods or not, the position of LORD God, the Father of all, is singular. Regarding the “wise divine beings” it is said that “They neither run from the ‘Way nor reverence any thing not a part of it; they consider themselves neither too exalted for his realm nor too humble for his commissions." (THE SONGS OF THE SABBATH SACRIFICE, 4Q400-407, 11Q17, Masada Fragment). Despite their divinity bestowed upon them and the wisdom they have gained, they are still all subject to the Lord God.
Still, they are honored to the extent that they are Godlike in morals and knowledge and dishonored to the extent that they are like Lucifer.
“ Bless the God of the godlike beings, you who inhabit the highest heaven…knowledge of the eternal godlike beings“ (THE SONGS OF THE SABBATH SACRIFICE, 4Q400-407, 11Q17, Masada Fragment)
POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
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POST TWO OF TWO
These were orthodox teachings to the ancients who wrote and used such texts (though the modern Judaic movements have abandoned such teachings in the main). However, If the Copper Scroll discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls is authentic, it placed these texts in the very mainstream of Judaic doctrines and underlie the ancient temple orthodoxy.
The divine “God-like” beings were not all simply arch-angels, but according to these ancient doctrines, some of them were the spirits of men. The discourse on the Soul of Man in the Haggadah describes the circumstances of placing the pre-existent spirit of man (or woman) into the embryo (according to their doctrinal understanding). When the spirit is told to enter the sperm or embryo the spirit is reluctant (perhaps scared to continue...) And the pre-mortal spirit then asks : Quote: “Why do you now desire to have me enter this impure sperm, I who am holy and pure, and a part of your glory?” God consoles her : “The world which I shall cause you to enter is better than the world in which you have lived hitherto, and when I created you, it was only for this purpose.” ( The Haggadah -The Soul of Man)
When the soul finally enters against her will (wisdom and souls are expressed as female anciently), “the angel carries her back to the womb of the mother.” where her body is nurtured. However, the pre-birth spirit is shown many things which prepare her for her life. Quote: “In the morning an angel carries her to Paradise, and shows her the righteous, who sit there in their glory, with crowns upon their heads. The angel then says to the soul, “Do you know who these are?” She replies in the negative, and the angel goes on: “These whom you behold here were formed, like you, in the womb of their mother. When they came into the world, they observed God’s Torah and his commandments. Therefore they became the partakers of this bliss which you see them enjoy.....
“ These righteous, glorified individuals with crowns were MEN AND WOMEN who had lived and died PREVIOUSLY.
It is important to note that the spirit is shown those who were, like her, introduced from a pre-mortal sphere into mortality and who were to learn to live gain moral knowledge, learn to live moral law and good lives and then, if successful, returned to live in bliss, having gained knowledge and characteristics they did not have when they left. THESE men and women became “pious ones” who return to God more like him (more God-like) than when they left. Each soul is given the same promise that they are able to become worthy to become one of the "pious ones" themselves.
“ .... “These whom you behold here were formed, like you, in the womb of their mother. When they came into the world, they observed God’s Torah and his commandments. Therefore they became the partakers of this bliss which you see them enjoy. Know, also, you will one day depart from the world below, and if you will observe God’s Torah, then will you be found worthy of sitting with these pious ones. But if not, you will be doomed to the other place.” (The Haggadah - The Soul of Man)
Thus, if they are successful, they take their place with other pious and Godlike ones. Quote: “At their wondrous stations are spirits, clothed with embroidery, a sort of woven handiwork, engraven with splendid figures. In the midst of what looks like glorious scarlet and colors of utter holy spiritual light, the spirits take up their holy stand in the presence of the King – splendidly colored spirits surrounded by the appearance of whiteness. This latter glorious spiritual substance is like golden handiwork, shimmering in the light.” (THE SONGS OF THE SABBATH SACRIFICE, 4Q400-407, 11Q17, Masada Fragment)
It is by this process within mortality that “He brings some of the sons of the world near, to be reckoned with him in the council of the gods as a holy congregation, stationed for eternal life and in the lot with His holy ones...” (THE AGES OF THE WORLD 4Q180-181). The ancient doctrine was that man was not destined to simply surround god as cattle, singing praises, but to achieve to a celestial knowledge and character. This is what the psalm-writer also testifies : “That bodies, covered with worms of the dead, might rise up from the dust to an eternal council; from a perverse spirit to your understanding. That he might take his position before you with the eternal hosts and spirits of truth to be renewed with all that shall be and to rejoice together with those who know.” (THANKSGIVING PSALMS - 1QH, 1Q35, 4Q 427–432)
The thoroughly Christian Abbaton history uses language specific to this context. Jesus tells the apostles : Quote: “He put breath into him in this way; He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life three times, saying, “Live! Live! Live! According to the type of My Divinity.” And the man lived straightway, and became a living soul, according to the image and likeness of God. And when Adam had risen up he cast himself down before [My] father, saying, “My Lord and my God! Thou hast made me to come into being [from a state in which] I did not exist.” (Abbaton)
Adam was not given God’s divinity, but his TYPE of divinity. Adam doesn’t ever expect to become THE God, but rather if he obeys the torah, then he becomes God-Like. In this manner, it was taught that man was “created from the dust for the eternal council…- and for man, you have allotted an eternal destiny with the spirits of knowledge…” (THANKSGIVING PSALMS - 1QH, 1Q35, 4Q 427–432)
This doctrinal context underlies early texts.For example, in the early christian text, Testament of Adam, Eve tells her children : Quote: “He spoke to me about this in Paradise after I picked some of the fruit in which death was hiding: ‘Adam, Adam do not fear. You wanted to be a god; I will make you a god, not right now, but after a space of many years. I am consigning you to death, and the maggot and the worm will eat your body.’3...But after a short time there will be mercy on you because you were created in my image, and I will not leave you to waste away in Sheol. For your sake I will be born of the Virgin Mary. For your sake I will taste death and enter the house of the dead....4'And after three days, while I am in the tomb, I will raise up the body I received from you. And I will set you at the right hand of my divinity, and I will make you a god just like you wanted. And I will receive favor from God, and I will restore to you and to your posterity that which is the justice of heaven.” (TESTAMENT OF ADAM 3:2-4)
This context changes the meaning of Jesus’ answer to his detractors when he says “ Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?” (Jn 10:34)
In the DSS DISCOURSE 4q374 , the ancient Jewish writer refers to Moses as “a god over the mighty” by saying “He planted His chosen in a land desirable above all others, in …He made him as a god over the mighty; as a compass for pharaoh”. The description of Moses as a God, did not make him THE God, but, for the ancient commentarist, it was NOT an inappropriate doctrinal statement. It may have been the most descriptive and most applicable term to use.
This concept of learning to learn moral characteristics which will allow men to become more like god confers upon mortality the purpose of education and testing. This is (I think) why Ignatius tells the Ephesians : “I speak to you as my fellow students. For I need to be trained by you in faith, instruction, endurance, and patience.” Ig-eph 3:1. He knows he will become more like God through a process of Imitation. Thus he taught the saints of ephesus : “Ye are imitators of God, once you took on new life” I-eph 1:1
This was the same theme the angels proclaimed in the Rechabite ascension text : Quote: “To us the holy angels of God announce (both) the incarnation of the Word of God, who (is) from the holy virgin, the mother of God, and all those things which (he) provides and perfects and endures for the sake of the salvation of mortals.....9f Have regard to us in your hidden thoughts, be imitators of our way of life, pursue peace, cherish the love (that is) unchangeable, and love purity and holiness. (HISTORY OF THE RECHABITES 12:9a and 9f)
When Israel went through it’s period of Henotheism (before strict monotheism won out), the Old Testament Prophets chastised ancient Israel, not for recognizing other Gods existed, but for their worship of other Gods such as Baal, Asherah and others because they were worshipping these God’s alongside Yahweh, the God of Israel. The Ugaritic texts make clear that in the early Canaanite environment, the people worshipped these other God, such as El Shaddai, El Elyon, and El Berith. All of these names are also applied to Yahweh by Old Testament writers.
One main current theory is that the Hebrew theologians adopted these titles and then attributed them to Yahweh in an effort to transfer the honor to Yahweh (and thus stamp out the worship of these other Gods). There were other Gods besides these as well, such as Yam and Mot (the Canaanite Gods of the sea and death – respectively). The fact that Yam and Mot became the Hebrew words for sea and Death reflects this connection as well as the origin of the Hebrew words from prior cultures and prior Hebrew theology.
KTU indicates that in early texts, Yahweh was another son of EL (KTY 1.1 IV 14). Thus, in the Canaanite environment Israel finds itself in early history, Jahweh is one of the sons of El and it is only later that Jahweh takes the place of El as their main God of worship.
Well, I have to stop somewhere. It might as well be here. The point underlying such history is that in Judeo-Christian Henotheism such as early Israel adopted, the dueling scriptures that seem to indicate that Jesus is somehow a God, who also has a Father who is a LORD God, seem to be much less antagonistic since it allows both to have the title of being a God, yet retains monotheism since the LORD GOD is the only one who recieves ultimate worship and ultimate honor since he alone has ultimate authority and power that he delegates to others as he sees fit.
Well rrobs, Good journey to you.
Clear.
τωφυσιτωω
These were orthodox teachings to the ancients who wrote and used such texts (though the modern Judaic movements have abandoned such teachings in the main). However, If the Copper Scroll discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls is authentic, it placed these texts in the very mainstream of Judaic doctrines and underlie the ancient temple orthodoxy.
The divine “God-like” beings were not all simply arch-angels, but according to these ancient doctrines, some of them were the spirits of men. The discourse on the Soul of Man in the Haggadah describes the circumstances of placing the pre-existent spirit of man (or woman) into the embryo (according to their doctrinal understanding). When the spirit is told to enter the sperm or embryo the spirit is reluctant (perhaps scared to continue...) And the pre-mortal spirit then asks : Quote: “Why do you now desire to have me enter this impure sperm, I who am holy and pure, and a part of your glory?” God consoles her : “The world which I shall cause you to enter is better than the world in which you have lived hitherto, and when I created you, it was only for this purpose.” ( The Haggadah -The Soul of Man)
When the soul finally enters against her will (wisdom and souls are expressed as female anciently), “the angel carries her back to the womb of the mother.” where her body is nurtured. However, the pre-birth spirit is shown many things which prepare her for her life. Quote: “In the morning an angel carries her to Paradise, and shows her the righteous, who sit there in their glory, with crowns upon their heads. The angel then says to the soul, “Do you know who these are?” She replies in the negative, and the angel goes on: “These whom you behold here were formed, like you, in the womb of their mother. When they came into the world, they observed God’s Torah and his commandments. Therefore they became the partakers of this bliss which you see them enjoy.....
“ These righteous, glorified individuals with crowns were MEN AND WOMEN who had lived and died PREVIOUSLY.
It is important to note that the spirit is shown those who were, like her, introduced from a pre-mortal sphere into mortality and who were to learn to live gain moral knowledge, learn to live moral law and good lives and then, if successful, returned to live in bliss, having gained knowledge and characteristics they did not have when they left. THESE men and women became “pious ones” who return to God more like him (more God-like) than when they left. Each soul is given the same promise that they are able to become worthy to become one of the "pious ones" themselves.
“ .... “These whom you behold here were formed, like you, in the womb of their mother. When they came into the world, they observed God’s Torah and his commandments. Therefore they became the partakers of this bliss which you see them enjoy. Know, also, you will one day depart from the world below, and if you will observe God’s Torah, then will you be found worthy of sitting with these pious ones. But if not, you will be doomed to the other place.” (The Haggadah - The Soul of Man)
Thus, if they are successful, they take their place with other pious and Godlike ones. Quote: “At their wondrous stations are spirits, clothed with embroidery, a sort of woven handiwork, engraven with splendid figures. In the midst of what looks like glorious scarlet and colors of utter holy spiritual light, the spirits take up their holy stand in the presence of the King – splendidly colored spirits surrounded by the appearance of whiteness. This latter glorious spiritual substance is like golden handiwork, shimmering in the light.” (THE SONGS OF THE SABBATH SACRIFICE, 4Q400-407, 11Q17, Masada Fragment)
It is by this process within mortality that “He brings some of the sons of the world near, to be reckoned with him in the council of the gods as a holy congregation, stationed for eternal life and in the lot with His holy ones...” (THE AGES OF THE WORLD 4Q180-181). The ancient doctrine was that man was not destined to simply surround god as cattle, singing praises, but to achieve to a celestial knowledge and character. This is what the psalm-writer also testifies : “That bodies, covered with worms of the dead, might rise up from the dust to an eternal council; from a perverse spirit to your understanding. That he might take his position before you with the eternal hosts and spirits of truth to be renewed with all that shall be and to rejoice together with those who know.” (THANKSGIVING PSALMS - 1QH, 1Q35, 4Q 427–432)
The thoroughly Christian Abbaton history uses language specific to this context. Jesus tells the apostles : Quote: “He put breath into him in this way; He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life three times, saying, “Live! Live! Live! According to the type of My Divinity.” And the man lived straightway, and became a living soul, according to the image and likeness of God. And when Adam had risen up he cast himself down before [My] father, saying, “My Lord and my God! Thou hast made me to come into being [from a state in which] I did not exist.” (Abbaton)
Adam was not given God’s divinity, but his TYPE of divinity. Adam doesn’t ever expect to become THE God, but rather if he obeys the torah, then he becomes God-Like. In this manner, it was taught that man was “created from the dust for the eternal council…- and for man, you have allotted an eternal destiny with the spirits of knowledge…” (THANKSGIVING PSALMS - 1QH, 1Q35, 4Q 427–432)
This doctrinal context underlies early texts.For example, in the early christian text, Testament of Adam, Eve tells her children : Quote: “He spoke to me about this in Paradise after I picked some of the fruit in which death was hiding: ‘Adam, Adam do not fear. You wanted to be a god; I will make you a god, not right now, but after a space of many years. I am consigning you to death, and the maggot and the worm will eat your body.’3...But after a short time there will be mercy on you because you were created in my image, and I will not leave you to waste away in Sheol. For your sake I will be born of the Virgin Mary. For your sake I will taste death and enter the house of the dead....4'And after three days, while I am in the tomb, I will raise up the body I received from you. And I will set you at the right hand of my divinity, and I will make you a god just like you wanted. And I will receive favor from God, and I will restore to you and to your posterity that which is the justice of heaven.” (TESTAMENT OF ADAM 3:2-4)
This context changes the meaning of Jesus’ answer to his detractors when he says “ Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?” (Jn 10:34)
In the DSS DISCOURSE 4q374 , the ancient Jewish writer refers to Moses as “a god over the mighty” by saying “He planted His chosen in a land desirable above all others, in …He made him as a god over the mighty; as a compass for pharaoh”. The description of Moses as a God, did not make him THE God, but, for the ancient commentarist, it was NOT an inappropriate doctrinal statement. It may have been the most descriptive and most applicable term to use.
This concept of learning to learn moral characteristics which will allow men to become more like god confers upon mortality the purpose of education and testing. This is (I think) why Ignatius tells the Ephesians : “I speak to you as my fellow students. For I need to be trained by you in faith, instruction, endurance, and patience.” Ig-eph 3:1. He knows he will become more like God through a process of Imitation. Thus he taught the saints of ephesus : “Ye are imitators of God, once you took on new life” I-eph 1:1
This was the same theme the angels proclaimed in the Rechabite ascension text : Quote: “To us the holy angels of God announce (both) the incarnation of the Word of God, who (is) from the holy virgin, the mother of God, and all those things which (he) provides and perfects and endures for the sake of the salvation of mortals.....9f Have regard to us in your hidden thoughts, be imitators of our way of life, pursue peace, cherish the love (that is) unchangeable, and love purity and holiness. (HISTORY OF THE RECHABITES 12:9a and 9f)
When Israel went through it’s period of Henotheism (before strict monotheism won out), the Old Testament Prophets chastised ancient Israel, not for recognizing other Gods existed, but for their worship of other Gods such as Baal, Asherah and others because they were worshipping these God’s alongside Yahweh, the God of Israel. The Ugaritic texts make clear that in the early Canaanite environment, the people worshipped these other God, such as El Shaddai, El Elyon, and El Berith. All of these names are also applied to Yahweh by Old Testament writers.
One main current theory is that the Hebrew theologians adopted these titles and then attributed them to Yahweh in an effort to transfer the honor to Yahweh (and thus stamp out the worship of these other Gods). There were other Gods besides these as well, such as Yam and Mot (the Canaanite Gods of the sea and death – respectively). The fact that Yam and Mot became the Hebrew words for sea and Death reflects this connection as well as the origin of the Hebrew words from prior cultures and prior Hebrew theology.
KTU indicates that in early texts, Yahweh was another son of EL (KTY 1.1 IV 14). Thus, in the Canaanite environment Israel finds itself in early history, Jahweh is one of the sons of El and it is only later that Jahweh takes the place of El as their main God of worship.
Well, I have to stop somewhere. It might as well be here. The point underlying such history is that in Judeo-Christian Henotheism such as early Israel adopted, the dueling scriptures that seem to indicate that Jesus is somehow a God, who also has a Father who is a LORD God, seem to be much less antagonistic since it allows both to have the title of being a God, yet retains monotheism since the LORD GOD is the only one who recieves ultimate worship and ultimate honor since he alone has ultimate authority and power that he delegates to others as he sees fit.
Well rrobs, Good journey to you.
Clear.
τωφυσιτωω
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