1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured False Prophets

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Laika, Oct 5, 2017.

  1. Tmac

    Tmac Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2016
    Messages:
    945
    Ratings:
    +165
    Religion:
    none
    You live in a world of little boxes side by side instead of concentric circles, one within the other.
     
  2. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2014
    Messages:
    9,863
    Ratings:
    +5,454
    Religion:
    Secular theist (none)
    Would you willingly give your daughter to a rapist who attacked her to a marriage she doesn't want? You wouldn't.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2008
    Messages:
    2,236
    Ratings:
    +576
    Religion:
    Pragmatic Christian
    This particular subject has been brought out by opponents who don't understand squat about things back then. It is sure to happen again, and again - no matter how many times it is explained.

    You judge based on your culture, a culture wherein murder and rape are daily occurrences. If I told you that in the times of Israel when the Mosaic Law was installed, there existed no rapist at all - for a reason. What would you say?

    Any adulterer was killed, all adulterers and fornicators were outright killed, leaving none alive to continue dastardly deeds. If an engaged or married woman was raped - if she didn't scream she would be killed, unless if her scream couldn't be heard due to the location. Then she would be spared and the rapist killed.

    Rapist did not exist - since their life expectancy was Zero thereafter. In one case, nearly one entire tribe of Israel was killed because they would not hand over the criminals.
    What also was true back then was the fact that fathers controlled who their daughters were permitted to marry. This made it hard for some to find mates they loved.

    What would then happen if a young girl and a young man at marriageable age fell in love and the father forbade the marriage? There was nothing to do at all. The young could only suffer.
    What would then happen if a young man at marriageable age fell in love with a girl (the girl is not asked this time) and the father forbade the marriage?

    The law provided one way out. Rape her, and be forced to marry her. But, again, if she was engaged or married, it meant the death penalty for the man.

    Here we have a cultural difference you may not be able to relate to. That is your problem. Nonetheless, there were no rapist back then, because if the young man got married and he raped again, he might be guilty of fornication or adultery and that once again merited the death penalty.

    The quick and painful death penalty caused a very real shortage, complete shortage, of rapists back then.
     
    #103 Grandliseur, Oct 6, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  4. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2014
    Messages:
    9,863
    Ratings:
    +5,454
    Religion:
    Secular theist (none)
    It's "great" that you make these assumptions about myself and my views without answering my question. If your daughter got raped, would you think it just to give her to a rapist for ever after?

    Actually... they are not. Our cultures are not the same.

    So your view is that either they got killed or happily married their victim.

    So killing pretty much solves any problems in your view, got it. Interestingly I too think most rapists deserve death, but no one deserves to be forced to marry their rapist.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. Star of Bethlehem

    Star of Bethlehem New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1
    Ratings:
    +2
    Religion:
    Christian
    Well if in reality- ( according to you )no one can save us why pose the question at all?
     
  6. Akivah

    Akivah Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2013
    Messages:
    3,663
    Ratings:
    +1,797
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Cut me some slack?? If no slack, were you planning on bringing me up on blasphemy charges?

    Since you believe the Hebrew bible is corrupted, what does it matter what I quote from it?

    Likewise, I attribute no authority to your holy book. So whatever you quote me from it, just like you I will dismiss it.

    OK, I will tell you the the Jewish definition and attributes.

    A prophet speaks the word of G-d to his/her current generation.
    A prophet receives their inspiration directly from G-d.
    A prophet does not deviate from the Hebrew bible, nor suggest that the Hebrew bible is corrupted or superseded.
    The last prophets were Haggai, Zachariah and Malachi. The age of prophecy ended with them (around pre 4th century).
    Thus by definition, any prophet after them is a false prophet. Any prophet in history that didn't meet the attributes above was a false prophet.

    How we doing on common ground?
     
    • Like Like x 3
  7. Laika

    Laika Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2015
    Messages:
    8,356
    Ratings:
    +9,198
    Because we typically don't believe in ourselves. We need someone to get us to re-think our assumptions and show us a new way of doing things.
     
  8. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2015
    Messages:
    4,680
    Ratings:
    +3,991
    Religion:
    "Post" Christian, likely Deist
    LOL, what?

    No, it's part of "only the elite could read the chicken scratch" cuneiform. Illiteracy is not a good thing. It lets people walk all over you just by writing stuff down.

    Ahem. Pot. Kettle.

    Who?

    Verse?

    I feel John and Paul are blasphemers. Next.

    Well, that didn't work out. People are able to rebut all the time, most of the time quite effectively.

    Actually, we are old wineskins Jesus tried to put new wine into. That's why, I feel, the skins broke.

    I doubt this. Religion only seems to mirror what is in the hearts of people. I see no transformations at all, only confirmation bias. A moral person didn't need to hear of Jesus and an immoral person won't care.

    So, it's okay to stone your wife if her rapist gagged her and she couldn't scream and your house was in a city? That sound about right to you?

    If Muhammad pbuh was illiterate, that meant that the Quran was written by scribes, yes?

    To be fair, though, not everyone was thrilled with your prophet either.

    I wholeheartedly agree. However, nothing makes Islam particularly immune to this either. I mean, just in this thread I see the conversion of a Jewish scholar to be proof of Islam's worth, when name recognition ultimately means squat.

    Do you always believe the tourist brochures? I can find monuments in the US to Paul Bunyan and Superman, and they are fictional characters.

    And I think that's where things took a dive. :)
     
  9. Magus

    Magus Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2017
    Messages:
    620
    Ratings:
    +146
    Religion:
    Medusian
    Both Muslims and Jews are superstitious towards menstruating women, that is the real reason Muslim men cover women in black, spooky pheromones.

    According to Jews, women have to sacrifice two pigeons and two turtle doves, 8 days
    after menstruation in order to 'purify themselves' .

    Quran 2:222
    They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed. And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah hath enjoined upon you. Truly Allah loveth those who turn unto Him, and loveth those who have a care for cleanness.

    Leviticus 15:19
    And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.

    Leviticus 21:9
    And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

    Quran 2:223
    Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will

    1 Timothy 2:12
    I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,361
    Ratings:
    +495
    Religion:
    Islam
    I would hate to disappoint anyone.

    Let's.

    Agreed.

    Disagree on plurality of Prophets, the verse makes it clear.. ONE Single Prophet:
    15 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen— 16 just as you desired of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God or see this great fire any more, lest I die.’ 17 And the Lord said to me, ‘They are right in what they have spoken. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19 And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him.

    The verses clearly speak of ONE Prophet who would be like Moses pbuh.
    Yes I agree the Nation didn't want a repeat of the day of assembly, and likely did request ALL future Prophets act as intermediaries, however 15-18 which I posted above is regarding ONE Special Prophet who would be like Moses pbuh and you still haven't put forward any names as to who this may have been.

    Minus the plurality of Prophets ;)

    He and him suggests a single prophet. God could easily have said Prophets, but didn't.

    Yes that's quite clear, no foreigners to rule over the Nation. This means we have to agree upon what brethren/brother meant in the time of Moses pbuh. I suggest it included all those that intermarried with the Israelites, their cousins from Keturah and Hagar, may God be pleased with them both.

    Before disputing this consider Balaam was a non Jewish Prophet and Cyrus the Great of Persia was anointed by God.

    Includes cousins and fellow Countrymen. Nothing about having to be from a specific Tribe there. Any names who may fit the bill yet?

    From amongst their brethren, though I'm sure the Jews would have selected someone from amongst their own kin. Good job it's GOD choosing in Deuteronomy 18 and not the Jews themselves.

    I understand, Jews only accept someone IF they accept what has been established without question. Anyone looking to rock the boat like Jesus or Muhammad pbuh are rejected outright.

    I quote them because they line up with the Qur'an and more importantly YOU believe the verses to be the unchanged word of GOD, otherwise we would make little progress.

    Yes I can accept the ones who wrote much of the Torah were relaying oral traditions which showed their forefathers as not being the best in obedience to GOD.

    The Pagans of Mecca and Medina didn't even know of the Exodus story. When Allah swt tells it to Muhammad pbuh, He tells him to ask the people of the book if he is in doubt. Qur'an 10:90-94

    And We took the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh and his soldiers pursued them in tyranny and enmity until, when drowning overtook him, he said, "I believe that there is no deity except that in whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of the Muslims."

    Now? And you had disobeyed [Him] before and were of the corrupters?

    So today We will save you in body that you may be to those who succeed you a sign. And indeed, many among the people, of Our signs, are heedless

    And We had certainty settled the Children of Israel in an agreeable settlement and provided them with good things. And they did not differ until [after] knowledge had come to them. Indeed, your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ

    So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.

    Valid point, anything is a possibility.

    It doesn't matter as there is no mention of him in your accounts.

    You mentioned Deuteronomy 13:2-6 which mentions those who call to other Gods, hence my explanation Muslims worship the same God as Abraham pbuh.

    Re-reading what you wrote, signs could come from Sihr is a fair point, but the message being preached usually shows if GOD is behind a particular Prophet or not. Both Jesus and Muhammad pbut taught belief in the One True God and encouraged their followers to submit to His will.

    I was quoting Respect Rabbi Tovia Singer.

    Many consider the promise of being made a Great Nation was fulfilled in the 7th Century when Islam wiped away Idolatry in favour of worship of GOD alone, and carried this message far and wide.
     
  11. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,361
    Ratings:
    +495
    Religion:
    Islam
    There absolutely is a New Covenant, New song mentioned and it involves the Ishmaelites and Gentile Nations:

    “I am the Lord; I have called you in righteousness;
    I will take you by the hand and keep you;
    I will give you as a covenant for the people,
    a light for the nations,
    7 to open the eyes that are blind,
    to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon,
    from the prison those who sit in darkness.
    8 I am the Lord; that is my name;
    my glory I give to no other,
    nor my praise to carved idols.
    9 Behold, the former things have come to pass,
    and new things I now declare;
    before they spring forth
    I tell you of them.”
    Sing to the Lord a New Song
    10 Sing to the Lord a new song,
    his praise from the end of the earth,
    you who go down to the sea, and all that fills it,
    the coastlands and their inhabitants.
    11 Let the desert and its cities lift up their voice,
    the villages that Kedar inhabits;
    let the habitants of Sela sing for joy,
    let them shout from the top of the mountains.

    Kedar was a Son of Ishmael pbuh and The Mountain Sela is located in Medina.

    I would expect nothing less from you.

    The issue here is what the texts say, and whether GOD could send Prophets to non Jews:

    Natanel al-Fayyumi, a 12th-century Yemenite rabbi, to suggest that God established an eternal covenant with Moses and the Children of Israel, but that He also established a covenant with Muhammad and the Muslims.

    Additionally, al-Fayyumi finds it critically important to reiterate the Torah's warning that if a prophet comes to change the laws of the Torah, he is not to be seen as a prophet for the Jewish people. Seeing that many of the laws and ideas in Islam are contrary to those of Judaism, and that the language of the Quran is different to that of the Torah, al-Fayyumi holds that a Jew must remain a Jew. However, the fact that the Seven Laws of Noah (a moral code passed down to Noah from God for non-Jews) are stated in the Quran, may suggest that Islam is a Noahide religion for non-Jews.

    The Emeritus Chief Rabbi, Lord Sacks, promotes a similar idea in a much-maligned and controversial paragraph in the first edition of his book, The Dignity of Difference. He wrote, "In the course of history, God has spoken to mankind in many languages: through Judaism to Jews, Christianity to Christians, Islam to Muslims."

    Rambam himself mentions in his corpus of Jewish law, Mishneh Torah: "Muhammad and Jesus served to clear the way for King Messiah, to prepare the whole world to worship God with one accord."

    https://www.thejc.com/judaism/features/how-should-non-jewish-prophets-be-viewed-1.55332

    So although the possibility exists to accept Jesus and Muhammad pbuh as Prophets sent to Gentiles, Jewish Scholars are clear, Jews should and must not convert, but this is at odds with Deut 18:19. Free will I guess.
     
  12. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,361
    Ratings:
    +495
    Religion:
    Islam
    The Jewish definition is too narrow and appears to exclude Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael peace be upon them and none of them knew anything about a Hebrew Bible.

    The issue of the Bible being corrupted following the death of Moses pbuh is a fact, so any Prophet claiming otherwise post 1,400 B.C would be false.

    Moses pbuh received the Law around 1410 B.C. yet what it fully entailed and who followed it is a mystery. All we know is fast forward some 900 years to 500 B.C. and a non Prophet named Ezra writes the Law, God's Book and teaches the people...

    Ezra 7:25 “And you, Ezra, according to the wisdom of your God which is in your hand, appoint magistrates and judges who may judge all the people in the province Beyond the River, all such as know the laws of your God; and those who do not know them, you shall teach. 26 Whoever will not obey the law of your God and the law of the king, let judgment be strictly executed upon him, whether for death or for banishment or for confiscation of his goods or for imprisonment.” Ezra 7-25:26

    After he had done this Ezra along with his companions, gathered the people to show them their handy work and explain the book to them ...

    1 And all the people gathered as one man into the square before the Water Gate; and they told Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses which the Lord had given to Israel. 2 And Ezra the priest brought the law before the assembly, both men and women and all who could hear with understanding, on the first day of the seventh month. 3 And he read from it facing the square before the Water Gate from early morning until midday, in the presence of the men and the women and those who could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive to the book of the law. 4 And Ezra the scribe stood on a wooden pulpit which they had made for the purpose; and beside him stood Mattithi'ah, Shema, Anai'ah, Uri'ah, Hilki'ah, and Ma-asei'ah on his right hand; and Pedai'ah, Mish'a-el, Malchi'jah, Hashum, Hash-bad'danah, Zechari'ah, and Meshul'lam on his left hand. 5 And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people, for he was above all the people; and when he opened it all the people stood. 6 And Ezra blessed the Lord, the great God; and all the people answered, “Amen, Amen,” lifting up their hands; and they bowed their heads and worshiped the Lord with their faces to the ground. 7 Also Jeshua, Bani, Sherebi'ah, Jamin, Akkub, Shab'bethai, Hodi'ah, Ma-asei'ah, Keli'ta, Azari'ah, Jo'zabad, Hanan, Pelai'ah, the Levites,[a] helped the people to understand the law, while the people remained in their places. 8 And they read from the book, from the law of God, clearly; and they gave the sense, so that the people understood the reading.

    9 And Nehemi'ah, who was the governor, and Ezra the priest and scribe, and the Levites who taught the people said to all the people, “This day is holy to theLord your God; do not mourn or weep.” For all the people wept when they heard the words of the law. 10 Then he said to them, “Go your way, eat the fat and drink sweet wine and send portions to him for whom nothing is prepared; for this day is holy to our Lord; and do not be grieved, for the joy of the Lord is your strength.” 11 So the Levites stilled all the people, saying, “Be quiet, for this day is holy; do not be grieved.” 12 And all the people went their way to eat and drink and to send portions and to make great rejoicing, because they had understood the words that were declared to them.

    Nehemiah 8-1:12

    So we see from the above, the people didn't have a complete book of Law from God before Ezra the scribe provided one.

    For I know that after my death ye will become utterly corrupt, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. (Deuteronomy 31:29)

    "How can you say, 'We [The Jews] are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie." (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)

    What we learn is not to pay too much heed to what a Jew considers to be a bona fide Prophet, so I guess little to no common ground ;)
     
    • Creative Creative x 1
  13. Magus

    Magus Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2017
    Messages:
    620
    Ratings:
    +146
    Religion:
    Medusian
    None of the Old Testament are older then the 3rd Century BCE , Abraham already had the Torah in his possession , non-linear stories .

    Why does the Quran plagiarises the characters in the Old Testament, such as Ruddy Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Moses?

    Book of Ezra is semi-historical fictional and chronologically flawed , It also disguises Zoroaster (Artabazos II ) with the names 'Ezra and Zorobabel ' .

    I suspects they learnt philosophy from Plato and spread that into the eastern world when Zoroaster became Satrap of Bactria.

    Plato PBUH
     
  14. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    25,076
    Ratings:
    +16,287
    Religion:
    None
    Reading as various flavors of Abrahamic religionists argue about what constitutes a prophet reinforces my observation that there is no God who cares about what we believe, do, or what happens to us.

    Tom
     
    • Like Like x 2
  15. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,361
    Ratings:
    +495
    Religion:
    Islam
    You should know, Islam teaches, GOD has sent Tens of Thousands of Prophets throughout the ages. They all came from the same source, so accusations of plagiarism is silly. It could well be people like Zoroaster preached Monotheism, and like many previous Messengers, the people over time forgot, changed and altered the message mixing facts with fiction.
     
  16. Magus

    Magus Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2017
    Messages:
    620
    Ratings:
    +146
    Religion:
    Medusian
    There is no monotheism, Islam worships Helios , It includes Phoenician characters such as Adam, Abraham, Jacob, Isaac and Moses, it also as an entire chapter dedicated to Alexander the Great.

    There is also evidence that parts of the Quran were already in existence before Muhammad and that he stole and redacted existing literature for his own political militaristic goals and sexual fetishes.
     
    #116 Magus, Oct 6, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  17. Magus

    Magus Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2017
    Messages:
    620
    Ratings:
    +146
    Religion:
    Medusian
    Pareidolia and the power of suggestion
     
  18. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2008
    Messages:
    2,236
    Ratings:
    +576
    Religion:
    Pragmatic Christian
    You seem unable to understand the culture of this ancient nation. In this culture, if a child was born *******, that child was not permitted to live in Israel, nor would its children be permitted. If the woman became pregnant because of the rape, this was the only way for the child to be raised with a father and mother and not be a *******.

    The law didn't deal with what people wanted in this situation; it dealt with was was necessary. That you don't agree is not the issue. A young virgin who got raped might never ever be able to be married off in that society; thus, the point that this rapist should marry her was perhaps the only way now for her ever to marry. And, where did I say they were 'happily married.'?

    Where did I say that? The fact is that this was the reason for there being no serial rapist or murderers in Israel of the past.

    I do not live in that culture, and surely my mindset is not adjusted to it. I live in a culture where rape is a common occurrence. Naturally, I would not want my daughter to marry a rapist. If I lived in that culture of the past, a culture where rapist didn't exist without being killed, so that in those cases it is as explained above, the only way for the woman perhaps to ever marry, for the child to be permitted in Israel - my mindset would not be what it is today. Would it now?!
     
  19. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2015
    Messages:
    4,680
    Ratings:
    +3,991
    Religion:
    "Post" Christian, likely Deist
    But what I don't get is why include them? Maybe Noah and Abraham, but what did the others do to deserve the title?
     
  20. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    14,418
    Ratings:
    +13,620
    Religion:
    none
    A fair part of the Quran is rhetorical commentary on Judaeo-Christian religious traditions. I'm sure we can agree on that.

    The Quran assumes its audience is so familiar with the Biblical narratives that it rarely makes any attempt to explain stories and characters before offering this commentary though.

    These would make no sense to a Pagan audience completely ignorant of even the most basic aspects of the previous religions.

    Other than the unreliable later traditions say so, why would anyone believe that the Quran emerged in an isolated Pagan backwater that magically managed to avoid coming into contact with what had been the dominant Abrahamic religious traditions of the Arabian peninsular for centuries?
     
    • Like Like x 2
Loading...