False Prophets

[Magus]

Prophets came from Greek mythology, that is why it's Greek ' προφήτης ' , so Prophets were originally of Zeus pbuh

 

[Muslim-UK]

It doesn't really matter because different groups have different criteria. Do you consider Baha'ullah to be a prophet?

No because Prophets come with revelation and accompanying signs to show their truthfulness. I'm not aware of any signs produced by Baha'ullah and secondly, Muhammad pbuh proved his truthfulness, was sent with accompanying signs, and we are told, he was the Final Prophet.

btw talking of signs, you will perhaps recall me asking you about the Apollo 11 mission.

I asked when the shuttle left the moon's surface and with how much Moon rock, and you responded, "July 29, 1969 at 1:57PM." "Not a lot. 22 kilograms."

Was Muhammad the final prophet?

I got sidetracked and forgot to get back to you. You were not far off:

LM Departed Moon: July 21, 1969
17:54:01 UT (1:54:01 p.m. EDT)
Moon Rocks Returned: 21.7 kilograms

Apollo 11 | National Air and Space Museum

From the above we note 21/7/1969 carrying 21.7kg and left at 54:01 (The hour isn't important as it would have been different depending on where one lived on Earth at the time).

Quran Search - IslamiCity

Can you indulge me and do a word search, 'Moon' on that site and notice it will return results showing that word occurs in 27 verses, one of the verses has it mentioned twice, so 28 results in all.

Now looking down the list, count the word Moon until you reach the 20th time it's mentioned and stop.

Let me know when you've done that, if you choose to of course! (Gives you a gentle nudge)

 

[Tumah]

I'm wondering how people try to distinguish between "true" prophets and "false" prophets. If someone walks down the street claiming to be a prophet for a religion (admittedly unlikely) you have to figure out whether you can take them at their word or whether you just move on trying to avoid making eye contact with the crazy person.

I think probably the best way to tell if someone were a false prophet is if they offer salvation. In reality, no-one can save us. There is no quick fix or easy solution to the problems of learning how to live our own lives. It is up to us to "save ourselves" by giving our lives meaning and purpose. The best we can get is to find spiritual and religious knowledge, be open to it and for someone to help us on our own journey. The higher level of consciousness associated with religious being is ultimately part of our own anatomy. It is part of our brain or mind (or soul if you wish). A false prophet can take away our ability to "see" and to "hear" from us by telling us to look for answers outside of ourselves in some external authority. The "true" prophet is someone who can help us regain our sight and hearing and learn to use our own conscience for the purpose of self-discover and self-creation.

Do you think this is a reasonable view? Or is there something missing?

Moses is considered a reliable prophet because the entire nation heard G-d speak to Moses at Mt. Sinai. Unless the entire nation experiences another mass revelation between G-d and another prophet, any other prophet has to rely on Moses. By that I mean, anyone coming with any sort of message from G-d has to first prove that he can indeed tell the future by describing future events a number of times, that end up being exactly as described (obviously that means vague descriptions won't cut it). After that, he's believed so long as his prophecy or message doesn't contradict or revoke anything that Moses said. He also needs to have some personal qualities befitting a man of G-d.

 

[Magus]

Gregorian Calender was implemented in the 16th century CE thus wasn't used in the 6th Century CE , also note that having an affinity with random numbers is a sign of Schizophrenia or Bipolar disorder, i would suggest you make an appointment with a mental health doctor.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Moses is considered a reliable prophet because the entire nation heard G-d speak to Moses at Mt. Sinai. Unless the entire nation experiences another mass revelation between G-d and another prophet, any other prophet has to rely on Moses. By that I mean, anyone coming with any sort of message from G-d has to first prove that he can indeed tell the future by describing future events a number of times, that end up being exactly as described (obviously that means vague descriptions won't cut it). After that, he's believed so long as his prophecy or message doesn't contradict or revoke anything that Moses said. He also needs to have some personal qualities befitting a man of G-d.

This is just your opinion. List the Prophets that came after Moses pbuh who you accept and list their pinpoint numerous predictions of future events, nothing vague of course.

btw Mt. Sinai is a very important site to the Israelites, yet no Jew knows where it is today.

 

[Magus]

Whatever the Torah was, it is lost , there is no evidence what so ever that ' Genesis-Exodus-Leviticus-Numbers-Deuteronomy ' is the Torah
and yet in those books, the Torah was already written (Genesis 26:5 ) , then it vanished, then was found (2 Kings 22:8) then vanished then found again ( Ezra 7:2).

The Torah was most likely the original writings of Zoroaster ( זְרֻ עֶזְרָה ).

 

[Tumah]

This is just your opinion.

If by my opinion you mean the opinion of Jewish source texts, than yes, it is.

List the Prophets that came after Moses pbuh who you accept and list their pinpoint numerous predictions of future events, nothing vague of course.

Why would we keep their tests for posterity?

btw Mt. Sinai is a very important site to the Israelites, yet no Jew knows where it is today.

Mt. Sinai is very important as an historical site. It has no inherent importance, it has no bearing on any Jewish Law. We don't need to know where it is.

 

[Magus]

This is just your opinion. List the Prophets that came after Moses pbuh who you accept and list their pinpoint numerous predictions of future events, nothing vague of course.

btw Mt. Sinai is a very important site to the Israelites, yet no Jew knows where it is today.

Sinai is in the Levant not in some desert wasteland , Prophet is a Greek loanword originally used in the works of Homer to describe the seers of Zeus , Moses is a semi-mythological character
based on Perseus, whom lifted up the serpentine (נָחָשׁ) head of Medusa (מַטֶּה/מַדּוּעַ) and turned River Adonis blood red ( דָּם יְאֹר)

Still happens in the Levant.

 

[Muslim-UK]

If by my opinion you mean the opinion of Jewish source texts, than yes, it is.

Post the Torah verses confirming this.

Why would we keep their tests for posterity?

No need, they were Prophets who preached worship and submission to the will of the One GOD. That is the test and they are sent with signs showing they were indeed from God.

Mt. Sinai is very important as an historical site. It has no inherent importance, it has no bearing on any Jewish Law. We don't need to know where it is.

That's fine. It's in Saudi Arabia if you ever wondered.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Sinai is in the Levant not in some desert wasteland

King Solomon pbuh honoured Moses pbuh by marking the spot of the crossing with a Stone Pillar. He placed two of them on each beach, one on the Egyptian side and the other in Saudi Arabia. The description of Mount Sinai given in the Torah doesn't match with what we find in Egypt, but fits perfectly when you look in S.Arabia.

 

[Tumah]

Post the Torah verses confirming this.

Deut. 18:21-22

No need, they were Prophets who preached worship and submission to the will of the One GOD. That is the test and they are sent with signs showing they were indeed from God.

That's not a test. Anyone can walk around preaching worship and submission to G-d. That doesn't mean he's also getting messages from G-d.

That's fine. It's in Saudi Arabia if you ever wondered.

I'm aware that that's one of the places historians believe it to be. I don't see how it really makes a difference where it is though.

 

[Ponder This]

I'm wondering how people try to distinguish between "true" prophets and "false" prophets. If someone walks down the street claiming to be a prophet for a religion (admittedly unlikely) you have to figure out whether you can take them at their word or whether you just move on trying to avoid making eye contact with the crazy person.

I think probably the best way to tell if someone were a false prophet is if they offer salvation. In reality, no-one can save us. There is no quick fix or easy solution to the problems of learning how to live our own lives. It is up to us to "save ourselves" by giving our lives meaning and purpose. The best we can get is to find spiritual and religious knowledge, be open to it and for someone to help us on our own journey. The higher level of consciousness associated with religious being is ultimately part of our own anatomy. It is part of our brain or mind (or soul if you wish). A false prophet can take away our ability to "see" and to "hear" from us by telling us to look for answers outside of ourselves in some external authority. The "true" prophet is someone who can help us regain our sight and hearing and learn to use our own conscience for the purpose of self-discover and self-creation.

Do you think this is a reasonable view? Or is there something missing?

I think that if there were a simple formula for identifying "true" prophets from "false" prophets, then the false prophets would mimic the formula. Hence, any "true" prophet would distinguish himself in a unique way instead of according to a set formula, "All true prophets do X."

 

[Scrooge]

The Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy; this is the Faith that is available to all through the Gospel.

First let’s take a look at the word prophesy throughout the Bible. In the Hebrew one word it is translated from is the word naba. It simply means to speak or sing by inspiration (in prediction or simple discourse). In oldest forms it was thought of as a religious ecstasy, with or without song and music. Later in the word’s etymology it was understood as essentially religious instruction, with occasional prediction.

Another Hebrew word that prophecy was translated from is nataph. It means to drip; to ooze, i.e. distil gradually; by implication, to fall in drops; figuratively, to speak by inspiration.

Here is how the word Naba is defined in Jeff A. Benner’s “Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of the Bible”.



Bn% (Bn% NB) ac: Flourish co: Fruit ab: Prophecy: The pictograph n is a picture of a seed, the b is a picture of a tent or house representing what is inside. Combined these mean "seed inside". A fruit hides the seeds inside it.





Abn% (Abn% NBA) ac: ? co: Prophet ab: Prophecy: A fruit produced from the inside of man. A knowledge of something that is not known by the five senses.


Aibn% (Aibn% N-BYA) - Prophet: One who brings forth the inner fruit. [Hebrew and Aramaic] [freq. 320] |kjv: prophet, prophecy…

So a prophet is one who is caught up in religious ecstasy; zeal. Speaking through the seed that has been planted in them; the Holy Spirit, the Inner fruit. They cannot help themselves, it is who they are, their cup runneth over; words of inspiration, Divine instruction oozing about and through them. For we are the Temple of God, the Body of Christ. It is God that worketh in us both to will and do His good pleasure through his indwelling Spirit. Christ in you the hope of Glory.

Ecstasy; Enter into The joy of the Lord. Be zealous, on fire, boiling over, oozing with good works through love. For he is love. And, "As He is so are we in this world."

Let us now take a look at the Written Word. Revelation and the Gift of the Gospel.....

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 12:17


Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:12


And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Rev 19:10
　
We keep the commandments of God through the faith in which we have, which is the Faith in which he has. That GOD through us does HIS will. This is our and HIS testimony, the witness of Jesus through God's indwelling Spirit; the Spirit of prophecy.

For we and our Father Yahovah GOD are one through the Body of Christ, the Temple of God. It is he that worketh in us both to will and do His good pleasure. He doeth the work and will lead us into all truth. This is the Spirit of Prophesy working in and through us. This what we keep and We Guard with our very lives.


This is the Gospel; This is why John and Paul through the Holy Spirit shared this.

　But ye have an unction (Anointing in the Greek) from the Holy One, and ye know all things. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1 John 2:20, 26-27; Rom 1:17


And why Jeremiah, Moses and Paul prophesied.


Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ,the Word, all that GOD would have us be. HIS Commandments down from above: ) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ, the Word, all that GOD would have us be. HIS Commandments again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ; the Word, the commandments manifested in the flesh, Our flesh) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, in thy heart, and in thy hand: that we may do it; this is, THE WORD OF FAITH IN WHICH WE PREACH.

And that is the Gospel, the Kingdom of GOD within you. For GOD hath said, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." And HE shall be our GOD and we shall be HIS people, for it is GOD that works in us both to will and do HIS good pleasure. Christ (the Word, His Commandments, GOD's will ) in you the hope of Glory


Romans 10:6-8 and Deut. 30:11-14 are speaking the same premise as of that which is found in Hebrews 8:10,11 and Jeremiah 31:33. It is just worded different. The Gospel, the New Covenant theme is interwoven throughout the Holy Writ; written various ways.


His Spirit, the Spirit of truth, will guide us into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew us things to come. John 16:13


Each and every believer through the Faith that is through the Gospel of God have a direct link with the Father through His Christ and can and will prophesy through Word or action through GOD's Spirit. IT IS HOW WE EXIST AS CHRISTIANS. For it is certain in him we live, and move, and have our being. This is the Faith which is the testimony of Jesus; the Spirit of Prophecy in which we keep. For we as the Body of Christ proclaim, “My FATHER in me; HE doeth the works" And GREATER WORKS THAN THESE SHALL WE DO BECAUSE HE WENT TO THE FATHER. (Acts 17:28; John 14:10)


Not because of what we do but because of who He is. For we are dead nevertheless we live. Yet Not us but Christ liveth in us. The life we now live in the flesh we live by the faith of the son of God. For it is God that worketh in us both to will and do His good pleasure.


This is the GOSPEL and how HE taketh away the sins of this world. This is the Faith in which we speak; the Testimony of Jesus, Spirit of Prophecy.

A new heart, new mind, new mouth, equals new words. Hence we can not help ourselves, for out of the abundance of our hearts through the Gospel the mouth speaketh.



And He has said," For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist."

Matt 12:34; Luke 21:15



We are a New Creature. Old things have past away; behold all things are new and of God who hath given us the ministry of reconciliation.

It is who we are or who we can become in Christ Jesus. Not us but Christ in us, the hope of Glory.

The end time people will keep the commandments of God and have the Faith, the Testimony of Jesus Christ, which is the Spirit of Prophecy.

As John and Peter professed so do we. Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.



A true Christian's heart and mind is transformed. Our words and actions will declare it through the Spirit that lives within. For God would that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them! Num 11:29

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of Faith. The true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

All flesh has had and will continue to have His Spirit poured upon them until that great and dreadful day. Thankfully the Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance; Faith. So come and enter into the joy of the LORD.

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance; Faith? For it is God which worketh in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure. That our ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left. Every good giving, and every perfect gift, is, from above, coming down from the Father of lights—with whom is no alternation, nor shadow cast, by turning. That we may be the children of our Father which is in heaven: for He maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. So that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that we are without excuse: For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are themselves the law: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another. (Rom 12:3; Joh 1:9; Mat 5:45; Php 2:13; Rom 2:4; Is 30:21; Jas 1:17; 2Pe 3:9; Rom 1:19-20,

 

[Muslim-UK]

Deut. 18:21-22

Deuteronomy 18:21-22

21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

Muhammad pbuh passed:

That's not a test. Anyone can walk around preaching worship and submission to G-d. That doesn't mean he's also getting messages from G-d.

Look again, I said they would come with signs, ie predictions, miracles etc

I'm aware that that's one of the places historians believe it to be. I don't see how it really makes a difference where it is though.

It doesn't, it just shows Saudi Arabia is central to God's plan. First House of GOD, Final Messenger from there etc

 

[YmirGF]

No because Prophets come with revelation and accompanying signs to show their truthfulness. I'm not aware of any signs produced by Baha'ullah and secondly, Muhammad pbuh proved his truthfulness, was sent with accompanying signs, and we are told, he was the Final Prophet.

btw talking of signs, you will perhaps recall me asking you about the Apollo 11 mission.

I asked when the shuttle left the moon's surface and with how much Moon rock, and you responded, "July 29, 1969 at 1:57PM." "Not a lot. 22 kilograms."

Was Muhammad the final prophet?

I got sidetracked and forgot to get back to you. You were not far off:

LM Departed Moon: July 21, 1969
17:54:01 UT (1:54:01 p.m. EDT)
Moon Rocks Returned: 21.7 kilograms

Apollo 11 | National Air and Space Museum

From the above we note 21/7/1969 carrying 21.7kg and left at 54:01 (The hour isn't important as it would have been different depending on where one lived on Earth at the time).

Quran Search - IslamiCity

Can you indulge me and do a word search, 'Moon' on that site and notice it will return results showing that word occurs in 27 verses, one of the verses has it mentioned twice, so 28 results in all.

Now looking down the list, count the word Moon until you reach the 20th time it's mentioned and stop.

Let me know when you've done that, if you choose to of course! (Gives you a gentle nudge)

41:37 (Asad) Now among His signs are the night and the day, as well as the sun and the MOON: [hence,] adore not the sun or the MOON, but prostrate yourselves in adoration before God, who has created them - if it is Him whom you [really] worship. [33]

the 2nd use of Moon is the 20th time cited in the list. What of it?

I cannot explain the wrong date other than perhaps the early onset of dementia, a typo or not wearing my glass, LOL. *hangs head in shame*

 

[Muslim-UK]

41:37 (Asad) Now among His signs are the night and the day, as well as the sun and the MOON: [hence,] adore not the sun or the MOON, but prostrate yourselves in adoration before God, who has created them - if it is Him whom you [really] worship. [33]

the 2nd use of Moon is the 20th time cited in the list. What of it?

Now go back and notice the 21st, (day the shuttle left) mention is found in Qur'an 54:1 << The 54th Chapter just happens to be called Moon. Remember it left 54 min and 1 sec

After 54:1 the word Moon is mentioned another 7 times (July)
The number of verses after 54:1 are til the end of the Qur'an are 1389 verses, which converted to the Gregorian Calendar = yep, 1969 <<< The year of the Apollo 11 Mission.

 

[YmirGF]

Now go back and notice the 21st, (day the shuttle left) mention is found in Qur'an 54:1 << The 54th Chapter just happens to be called Moon. Remember it left 54 min and 1 sec

After 54:1 the word Moon is mentioned another 7 times (July)
The number of verses after 54:1 are til the end of the Qur'an are 1389 verses, which converted to the Gregorian Calendar = yep, 1969 <<< The year of the Apollo 11 Mission.

Oh, good grief. LOL.
You folks really need to get out more.

 

[Magus]

King Solomon pbuh honoured Moses pbuh by marking the spot of the crossing with a Stone Pillar. He placed two of them on each beach, one on the Egyptian side and the other in Saudi Arabia. The description of Mount Sinai given in the Torah doesn't match with what we find in Egypt, but fits perfectly when you look in S.Arabia.

You do realise 'Stone Pillars' in the ancient world were in the shape of a Phallus, they were known as Boundary or border Markers, the god associated with them is Hermes , the name also used for other boundaries or straits , for example 'Strait of Hormuz' , 'Pillars of Hercules ' ( מלךקרת) and Mount Sinai (χιών) also known as Mount Hermon.

Numbers 34:8 - From mount Hor ye shall point out your border

Here is an Ancient depiction of Allah-Hermes (dates 490 B.C.E )

 

[Tumah]

Deuteronomy 18:21-22

21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

Muhammad pbuh passed:

I'm not sure you're following. In order for a person to be accepted as a prophet, they first must pass the test of describing future events exactly. Then they can be believed as a prophet. That's the order.

1 Sam 3:19 And Samuel grew up and G-d was with him and did not cause any of his words to fall to the ground.
3:20 And all of Israel knew from Dan to Be'er Sheva that Samuel is trustworthy to prophecy of G-d.

Notice, no messages, no prophecies. He hasn't started his career as a prophet to the people yet. The first stage is that everything he says will happen, happens (v. 19). Then he gets his kosher certification (v. 20).

That doesn't seem to have happened in the case of Muhammad.

Besides for that, he failed by virtue of having contradicted Moses' prophecy. Moses told us that we should not add or subtract to the commandments (Deut. 13:1) and Muhammad did both. Moses told us that the commandments are eternal and Muhammad negated them.

My entire nation heard G-d speak to Moses. We know clearly that Moses is a prophet. No one heard G-d speak to Muhammad. Why would we trust Muhammad over Moses?

Look again, I said they would come with signs, ie predictions, miracles etc

You did say that. But look again. You said the test is that they preach worship and submission. As a side note you pointed out that they also bring signs.

In any case, bringing signs doesn't qualify one as a prophet per Deut. 13:2-6. And that's logical, since someone not familiar with sihr would otherwise be tricked into believing a false prophet.

It doesn't, it just shows Saudi Arabia is central to God's plan. First House of GOD, Final Messenger from there etc

I'm not sure that because one event took place at Mt Sinai that it automatically becomes central to G-d's plan. I'd guess that that area would feature a bit more prominently in Jewish sources were that the case.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "First House of G-d". The Temple was on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, not at Mt. Sinai in whatever country it was.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I'm wondering how people try to distinguish between "true" prophets and "false" prophets. If someone walks down the street claiming to be a prophet for a religion (admittedly unlikely) you have to figure out whether you can take them at their word or whether you just move on trying to avoid making eye contact with the crazy person.

I think probably the best way to tell if someone were a false prophet is if they offer salvation. In reality, no-one can save us. There is no quick fix or easy solution to the problems of learning how to live our own lives. It is up to us to "save ourselves" by giving our lives meaning and purpose. The best we can get is to find spiritual and religious knowledge, be open to it and for someone to help us on our own journey. The higher level of consciousness associated with religious being is ultimately part of our own anatomy. It is part of our brain or mind (or soul if you wish). A false prophet can take away our ability to "see" and to "hear" from us by telling us to look for answers outside of ourselves in some external authority. The "true" prophet is someone who can help us regain our sight and hearing and learn to use our own conscience for the purpose of self-discover and self-creation.

Do you think this is a reasonable view? Or is there something missing?

"The best we can get is to find spiritual and religious knowledge, be open to it and for someone to help us on our own journey."

Personally I see absolutely no need for 'spiritual' or 'religious' knowledge in order to give my life meaning or purpose.