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Featured Faithless a Choice?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by nPeace, Dec 31, 2020.

  1. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    No, that's giving up.
     
  2. Joe W

    Joe W Always a godfather, never a god.

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    Giving up on a specific thing is not giving up on everything. Did you mean something specific, or were you intending to make such a broad and vague statement?
     
  3. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    The Bible only contains prophecies of events after the fact. It does not contain failed prophecy. It selectively choose things that they believe have happened. Or things that have not yet happened.
    As proof of anything, prophecy always fails miserably
     
  4. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    No, you have faith (hope) that, that may come about.
    One day you will be wrong.
    This is certain.

    Faith is always about the uncertain or unprovable.
    It is usually a mixture of hope and wishful thinking.
     
  5. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    A short list...
    A reliable source of truth
    Unchanged and up to date
    Biblical figures unambiguously identified
    Historically Accurate

    There are other things "evidenced in reality" which you don't accept, or believe, but because you dismiss them, that doesn't make them any less reality.
    For example... Spirituality; the influence of spirit, and its effects; higher beings... etc.

    Young earth? Does the Bible say how young the earth is? No.
    Talking snakes? One single account mentioned a serpent in conversation with Eve. That one account does not mention that serpent again, apart from God's condemnation on the serpent. The Bible identifies the serpent as the Devil and Satan - opposer, and deceiver. The voice behind the serpent was an angel.
    Similar to Balaam's donkey. An angel was speaking - not the donkey.
    Even if one were to argue that they actually spoke, no details are given as to how they did, so that's really a non issue, since no one can reasonably argue that it cannot be done.
    What is so hard to believe about making a human from a rib? Say it could be done scientifically, would you not believe it? Why then do you think it cannot be done by a "super-intellect"?

    What do you mean by my argument has not worked?
    If you mean, you are not convinced by my argument, which really it is not an argument, but a fact, you are reinforcing the OP - that people can see clear evidence, but choose to deny it.
    You don't have to know everything for it to be true. If someone in Taiwan said hailstones the size of a man's fist fell, you don't need to see it, for it to be real.

    There are people that have been raised in non-religious households, who became Atheists, and later became religious.
    Again, people who deny this, do so by choice. They basically take figurative blinders and put them on, so they would remain blind... because they choose to.
    I am not trying to convince you to be anything though, in case that's what you meant by 'argument hasn't worked'.
     
  6. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I don't wonder that because it is written in a reliable book that that's not the case.
    People say they have reason to hate God, because they have reason to believe God is... based on reason.
     
  7. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Well-Known Member
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    Well, I don't know. Do you think displays of electricity from the hand could be done technologically? Could it be done via a 3d hologram? Maybe through a cgi projection?

    What would it take for you, evidence wise, to believe that Thor was real?

    What people accept and reject has 100% to do with what you already have in your epistemological toolset. If you believe things can happen, it's because you've already decided they can.

    Now, you can switch out tools if you think other ones work better (get you closer to your understanding of reality), but ultimately, when you decide something, it's because you already have that understanding or have come to that understanding.

    Where's the choice?

    Alrighty, then.

    Do you have any evidence to back this up outside of the bible? If I were to read you a verse from a different holy text, would you accept it? Why would you accept it, or reject it? Is it because their god made it in your heart to accept or reject what was written in that holy book?

    Why would he want that?...

    You know, I was a die hard christian for 5/6ths of my life. I'm not as ignorant on these things as you seem to think I am.

    How would you feel if I told you that? Do you not see the arrogance? I don't even know what to say to you...

    Yah, I think I'm done. This is fruitless.
     
    #127 SigurdReginson, Jan 2, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2021
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  8. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Faithless a Choice?

    My Faith is very clear in this. We should never underestimate the power of Self Effort

    Karma of tomorrow can be effectively counteracted by Self Effort of Today

    Lack of Faith today, results from Lack of Self Effort yesterday
     
  9. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    @Audie
    (Genesis 6:9) . . .This is the history of Noah.. . .

    (Genesis 6:11-13) 11 But the earth had become ruined in the sight of the true God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 Yes, God looked upon the earth, and it was ruined; all flesh had ruined its way on the earth. 13 After that God said to Noah: “I have decided to put an end to all flesh, because the earth is full of violence on account of them, so I am bringing them to ruin together with the earth.

    (Genesis 6:17-21) 17 “As for me, I am going to bring floodwaters upon the earth to destroy from under the heavens all flesh that has the breath of life. Everything on the earth will perish. 18 And I am establishing my covenant with you, and you must go into the ark, you, your sons, your wife, and your sons’ wives with you. 19 And bring into the ark two of every sort of living creature in order to preserve them alive with you, a male and a female; 20of the flying creatures according to their kinds, the domestic animals according to their kinds, and all creeping animals of the ground according to their kinds, two of each will go in there to you to preserve them alive. 21 For your part, you are to collect and take with you every kind of food to eat, to serve as food for you and for the animals.”

    (Genesis 7:18-24) 18 The waters became overwhelming and kept increasing greatly upon the earth, but the ark floated on the surface of the waters. 19The waters overwhelmed the earth so greatly that all the tall mountains under the whole heavens were covered. 20The waters rose up to 15 cubits above the mountains. 21 So all living creatures that were moving on the earth perished - the flying creatures, the domestic animals, the wild animals, the swarming creatures, and all mankind. 22Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 So He wiped every living thing from the surface of the earth, including man, animals, creeping animals, and the flying creatures of the sky. They were all wiped off the earth; only Noah and those with him in the ark survived. 24 And the waters continued overwhelming the earth for 150 days.

    The Bible says this account is history. Not allegory. Not myth.
    The Bible says the waters covered the whole earth, including the all the tall mountains. I guess everyone knows what all means.
    The Bible says all flesh, including all animals on dry land died.
    I believe the Bible.

    Is there something more you need, or can you provide that proof now.
     
  10. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    For a simple one of many, polar ice deeply predates any possible bible flood date.
     
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  11. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Well-Known Member
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    Plus there are a few living things that predate the supposed biblical flood, such as the pando clone colony.
     
  12. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    The Bible is not alone in what I call defensive verses. The authors knew that they were peddling hokum and had to find a way to protect their holy book. Ironically a book that has a Commandment against bearing false witness against others bears false witness against others itself.
     
  13. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Hating God is silly. But it is the Christians who usually make the false claims that others hate God. For example an atheist will often point out that the God of the Old Testament is a vile and evil character. That is not "hating God". That is a mere recognition of how a character in a fictional book is presented. Using @Revoltingest 's example of Voldemort, pointing out that he was evil and power hungry would not be hating him. A story often needs a villain. And there will be fans that hate the villain. Adults tend not to feel that way and can appreciate the villain as part of the story.
     
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  14. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    What about polar ice polar ice predating the Biblical flood prove there was no global flood? :shrug:

    How does a few living things predating the Biblical flood prove there was no world wide flood? :shrug:
     
  15. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I really was eagerly looking forward to your response after I provided the list. Now I have provided it, I am hearing nothing from you about that list.
    Don't you have anything to say?
     
  16. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
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    I was distracted.
    But today is a new day, & you gave me a reminder.
    I'll go check it out.
     
  17. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    I'd think it obvious that ice floats, and would not be there if flooded.
     
  18. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
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    This link....
    https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-no1-2020-jan-feb/bible-reliable-source-of-truth/
    ....is filled with opinion, nothing objective.
    For example, claiming that the writers were truthful isn't verifiable.
    And as a deliverer of science because it says the Earth is suspended
    upon nothing? This doesn't mean much, nor does it excuse the
    many claims that conflict with science, eg, a recent world wide flood,
    parthenogenesis of humans, reanimation of dead humans, talking
    snakes, & biblical logicians calculating the age of the Earth being
    10k years or so.
    The other links try the same approach, ie, taking a translation of
    a translation of poetic language to adapt to comport with some
    scientific thinking, but ignoring conflicts.
    Such reasoning is bias confirming, but not convincing to those
    who don't already believe.
     
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  19. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Well-Known Member
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    Hmmm... Actually, you have a point. It's not proof of anything.

    I do find it unlikely that a flood on a global scale intended to wipe out all living animals on land and rip out vast swaths of earth and stone into the canyon formations we see today wouldn't also level forests or destroy shallow root clone colonies like pando.

    Then again, pando did survive the ice age. It didn't have to ever contend with flooding since there's little precipitation up where it's located, though.

    But ultimately, it being unlikely pando would have survived a global flood is just my opinion.

    How old do you reckon the world is, though?
     
  20. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    The ice on Antarctica isn't floating very far. It's still in Antarctica... floating.


    Your post is full of opinions... nothing objective.
    For example, the fact that the writers were honest is not just a claim.
    The writers included details about their own serious failings.
    Textual critics use certain criterion in examining ancient "historical" writings.
    There is for one, the Criterion of Embarrassment, and for another, there is the Criterion of multiple attestation.
    For these, I refer to earlier writings than Jesus. For example, there are accounts in the Bible, which are attested to by outside sources, from Assyrian annuls, and (I think Babylonian - speaking under correction). I linked these in a post somewhere, but now racking my brain to remember a key word that will help me locate it.
    If you want that information, to confirm what I am saying, just let me know, and give me a few days to find it.

    However, if you make the claim that we cannot use any document of the past, to evaluate their authenticity, then the entire ancient history should be erased - Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, etc., because they wrote things about themselves, and their activities, and they are generally accepted.
    Also, the claims made about fossils are made by people looking at these - which have no writing on them, and which don't say anything - and coming to conclusion on what they interpret.
    So, I would think if you are going to accept one, and dismiss the other, them I'm entitled to that too... in all fairness.

    The Bible stated a clear fact - the earth hangs on nothing... It did so 3,500 years ago, at a time when people described the earth as floating on water or being carried by a giant tortoise. Some 1,100 years after the book of Job was written, people continued to believe that the earth could not just hang in midair; it had to have something to rest upon. Only in 1687, Isaac Newton published his work on gravity and explained that the earth is held in orbit by an invisible force. This scientific milestone confirmed what the Bible had stated more than 3,000 years earlier!

    How could anyone know what Job knew back then?
    The evidence suggests what was written nearly 2,000 years ago... (2 Timothy 3:16) . . .All Scripture is inspired of God . . . (2 Peter 1:21) . . .For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were moved by holy spirit.
    This is why the Bible seems way ahead of its time, on these matters.

    It is the same with prophecy. The reason the Bible writers could write of events in advance of them occurring, is due to the fact that they were not writing according to their will, but God spoke by them.
    Many of the events, and real people in the Bible have been confirmed, by extra-Biblical sources.
    The evidence is there for one to see clearly.

    You claimed the Bible isn't exactly loaded with claims evidenced in reality. I told you that's not true. I showed you that's not true.
    Shifting one's gaze away to talk about what one does not understand, or what one does not find evidence for, is just demonstrating what the OP says.
    It's really ones choice to deny it.

    What the Bible says has nothing to do with "biblical logicians". So I have to wonder why you saw the need to mention that. Was that supposed to be a distractions - "lets look away from the evidence and focus on what people claim."?
    The global flood conflicts with science? Are you sure? What science is that? I'll like to see it, please.
    If you are referring to beliefs and opinions. Perhaps it does, but I'll have to see what you have in mind.


    Bare / bear in mind that a global flood would not level the land. Every part of the earth wouldn't be erosive.

    Yes, I was thinking you were making assumptions.
    I had to look up Pando, since this is the first time I ever heard the word, to be honest.
    Pando is a clonal colony of Populus tremuloides (quaking aspen) trees in south-central Utah, United States, that is estimated to be several thousand years old, possibly as much as 14,000 years. Unlike many other clonal "colonies", the above-ground trunks of these trees remain connected to each other by a single massive subterranean root system.

    Pando's long term survival is uncertain due to a combination of factors including drought, human development, grazing, and fire suppression....
    In areas of Pando lacking adequate protective fencing, grazing animals have prevented Pando from developing enough young stems to fully replace existing older stems as they die.


    So can Pando die? Has it? Could it have survived the flood? Some questions we cannot answer, but all things are possible... with God.
    How did they estimate the age of this organism though... do you know?
    You might find this an interesting read - Pando (tree) : Age of Range Estimate.

    Something to consider too, is that seeds grow in the earth. A flood does not make seeds unproductive. Root systems can remain in the eart too, depending on how destructive the water is. Water isn't tsunami like at all levels / heights.
    We can't know every detail about the flood, since there was no camera recording... only what's given in the Bible, but we don't want our mind to run wild.

    What are your thoughts on what is said in this article - Did a Comet Cause the Great Flood?

    Beats me. I don't go by the assumptions of scientists. Nor do I agree with the Young Earth Creationist.
    Going by the Bible, without even considering science, I can see that the earth is very old.
    First, the Bible tells us, that God created the earth, and then gradually made everything right before life could exist on it, and it needed to be prepared for man who would arrive much later.
    Just by the reading alone, one can see a slow gradual process. Unlike what some Creationist say, as though by magic, God spoke, and whoosh - something happened... Blam!
    That's unrealistic, and it's not the picture I see when I read the account.
    Even when dry land appears, I see a graduate process. The lifting of the waters; the grass and other vegetation growing... Everything was a gradual process.
    So I see many many years.
    Man arrive quite late too... Very long after a great deal of animal life.
    I think reading the Bible should be done with an open mind and heart, and with care.
     
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