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Featured Faith?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by Alone, Dec 1, 2019 at 10:09 PM.

  1. Alone

    Alone Active Member

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    Hebrews 11
    1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
    I know the Bible teaches that salvation cannot be earned by works that being said my question is this.
    How does a person prove to himself whether or not he has faith based on this verse?
     
  2. Shadow Link

    Shadow Link Active Member

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    The "substance" is a positive outlook.
     
  3. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Look up roots of word 'faith' in Greek, it means 'persuasion' i.e. God uses ways to persuade persons, individually or not. E.g. Abraham, had visions of persuading non material entity and conversed with IT.
     
  4. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    Why is this in interfaith?
     
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  5. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    So I feel comfortable replying?

    Faith is very complicated, IMO, because it is isolated, as far as spiritual concepts go.

    I'll try to explain what I mean and then relate it to the verse, even though, I know nothing about it ( the verse ) :rolleyes:

    A person can approach the divine from reason... the world is orderly and beautiful, there appears to me what looks like divine intervention making this happen.
    And then that reason, can encourage a more emotional connection. This can be imagined as another step towards the divine. It could be described as longing, or a craving to connect with the "thing" the "one" the "architect" who made something so beautiful.
    And then this emotional connection might encourage gratitude. And that is another step.
    This gratitude might encourage mercy and virtuous deeds, why? Because if I am actually thankful, and I appreciate what I have, it's natural to want to share and to comfort those who don't have and those who are suffering... and then that's another step towards the divine.

    And this chain of logic can continue for at least one or two more steps, but then it stops.

    That's where faith takes over. It's beyond reason, beyond emotion, beyond gratitude, beyond mercy, beyond virtuous deeds.

    Faith is lonley, isolated, and very very hard. But it's rewarding. That's my opinion.

    You asked: "How does a person prove to himself whether or not he has faith based on this verse?"

    I don't know anything about the verse. But I see the words, "substance", and I see the words "not seen". To me that means that faith is real, tangible and potent. Not seen means it's isolated, and all alone. How does one prove whether or not he has faith? They can't. It's not seen. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's just not seen, but still substantive. Does that help?

    Maybe the verse is telling you, you don't have to prove it? And that agrees with my interpretation of faith above, because... faith is beyond reason. So why prove it? Why even try? Proof doesn't change its substance?
     
    #5 dybmh, Dec 2, 2019 at 7:43 AM
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019 at 7:51 AM
  6. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    By following (being obedient to) what Jesus & the Scriptures say.

    Like, “love your brother- John 13:35”, “love your enemy- Matthew 5:44”, ‘a husband must love his wife- Ephesians 5:28’, ‘a wife must respect her husband- Ephesians 5:33’, ‘be forgiving- Colossians 3:13-14’, ‘be humble- Philippians 2:3-4.’ Etc.

    At least, keep trying...none of us can do these things perfectly! Romans 3:23

    But we must try! James 2:14-26
     
  7. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    James 2:18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    Faith is most evident when we do that which humans generally would not without it -when we "believe God exists and rewards those who diligently seek him." Fundamentally, it is shown by keeping the commandments regardless of circumstance -but also going above and beyond to do good works which you know will be of both immediate eternal benefit for others.
    The human tendency is to take the path of least resistance -and to make choices based on immediate situation... basically to do whatever it is which will keep you out of trouble and comfortable -whether sin or not. Some believe it is ok to sin if it means trouble not to sin -but that is not living by faith. Faith would be shown by trusting God for the outcome -which is not always immediately pleasant. Sometimes God will save you out of it immediately -sometimes he will allow you to go through it and save you out of it later. It is more than just belief -it is knowing -even if you do not know the particulars.

    There are many things we know which we have not actually seen -because that which surrounds them shows them to be true.
     
    #7 Etritonakin, Dec 2, 2019 at 10:01 AM
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019 at 5:42 PM
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  8. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Faith is like a coin, it has two faces: the first where God acted persuading a person and the second is the person's reaction, response. So works belong to reaction side, works is change of consciousness.
     
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  9. Alone

    Alone Active Member

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    I don't know Im new and I don't understand the categories obviously ,sorry about that
     
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  10. Alone

    Alone Active Member

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    So what does faith mean in English? I don't speak Greek
     
  11. Alone

    Alone Active Member

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    Okay that is a very interesting take on that, definitely things I will have to think about, I guess the whole idea behind this is knowing whether or not I will be in heaven after I die according to the Bible faith is the only way to get there so if I can't prove I have faith I can't prove that I will go to heaven? Thank you for your comment very useful
     
  12. Alone

    Alone Active Member

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    Thank you for your input, I will ponder this. PS thanks for everyone's input.
     
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  13. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    It means that many hardly understand religion concepts that arrived from original sources.
    "1. The root of 4102/pistis ("faith") is 3982/peithô ("to persuade, be persuaded") which supplies the core-meaning of faith ("divine persuasion"). It is God's warranty that guarantees the fulfillment of the revelation He births within the receptive believer (cf. 1 Jn 5:4 with Heb 11:1)."
    Strong's Greek: 4102. πίστις (pistis) -- faith, faithfulness
     
  14. Alone

    Alone Active Member

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    Okay, I thought the original source was God, I don't just look at some concordance that some man wrote and take that as full-on truth of course it would be a whole lot easier if I spoke Greek however I don't. Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
     
  15. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Original? As Inspirator, definitely. But what is written in books came from mystery schools.
     
  16. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    At this point in the discussion, I feel like I need to ask, respectfully, did you notice my religious label up at the top right corner of my replies? I'm Jewish. And not just a regular Jew. I'm strange. Ask anyone.

    OK... here comes a big disclaimer. I'm putting it in spoiler, cause, many people won't care about any of this...

    But please note: I want to continue this conversation and continue to unfiltered... so-to-speak. But at some point, there's a hard line in the sand between my beliefs and your beleifs that may become awkward to attempt to reconcile.

    In addition. Things I may say, from here on out in this thread could be complete garbage in the eyes of those who "PRACTICE" Judaism.

    I learn. And I give charity. Those are my strengths when it comes to practicing Judaism. It's all book smarts, creativity, and access to uncommon English translations of classic Jewish texts and commentary. Also, I spent over 10 years of life connected with an ultra-orthodox Jewish community as what I would call a "lay-practitioner". That's a term often used in the Dharmic ( from India ? ) belief systems. But it fits, so I'm going to use it. I prayed with them, learned with, celebrated with them, and they loved me.... my teachers and study partners... I'd say we had a love/hate working relationship, to be honest.

    But that's it, that's a summary of me. I learn, I contemplate, I give, I observe, and I emote. That is how I practice Judaism. and a lot fo that happens right here on RF. But there are easily 600+ other dimensions to being Jewish that I am not only ignorant of, but also I am very very clumsy when try to execute them in the real world. That's why, if we become friends... you will probably notice that 50-60% of my posts are smart. But the others depart **drastically** from smart. There is very little middle ground. Sometimes my ideas are insightful... other times... they are downright backwards and nonsense. What I know well... I know very well. Usually I am aware of the areas of my knowledge base which are lacking... but often I am not.

    So that's the disclaimer. What I know, I know well, and now you know why. Often I can ID my own shortcomings, but many times I can't. And it's important to note that when talking about heaven, hell, and ascension... these concepts are all heavily rooted in the philosophy of Chassidus for me, if I speak about them. That's my philosophical approach to the topics in this thread and your other recent thread. It doesn't have to be "Jewish" though, as evidenced in these recent threads.

    But I think at this point based on your follow-up comments and questions, it's important that I fully disclose: I am Jewish. I am not a Rabbi. I don't fit into any Jewish denomination. And I only recently discovered the "Jewish Renewal" movement and adopted its label. Seriously. Up until a few weeks ago... my religious label was "diversity".

    But I want to continue the conversation, I only ask that you forgive this verbose explanation. I am strange. I thought you should know that up-front.
     
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  17. Alone

    Alone Active Member

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    I haven't had any problems with anything you have said if I have made you feel that way I do apologize oh, you said something about my beliefs, what is it that you think I believe because quite honestly I am not sure what I believe. I know that I want to believe in the god of the Bible however I have not come to an hundred percent clarity I'm what that is? Again sorry if I have offended you in anyway please forgive me.
     
  18. Alone

    Alone Active Member

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    Okay so I do apologize if something I have said earlier has offended you, however my definition for faith comes from Hebrews 11:1 that is the definition that I am using, so I'm trying to understand what that definition means not another definition. I do appreciate your input. Thanks
     
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  19. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    My too. Faith is being firmly sure that visible world came from invisible , i.e. Spiritual. And Paul gives examples of persuasion, i.e. God communicating with individual listed in Heb. 11. To facilitate face. That is roots of "spirit and truth" of Christ Jesus.
     
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  20. Alone

    Alone Active Member

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    Okay great thank you do you have any idea what the substance is, that is hoped for?
     
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