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Featured Faith

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Earthling, Jun 9, 2018.

  1. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    I think you mean to say that they don't necessarily believe current science rather than that they are ignorant. Can you, for example, tell me where the water came from, because it wasn't simply rain. Or can you tell me how many animals it would have taken or the exact dimensions of the ark?

    Probably not, you can, however, dismiss it without any real consideration because the propaganda you are conditioned with doesn't say that it is a real possibility. This is called science? Science is never wrong?
     
  2. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that. It seems to me that skepticism and faith has a part in all manner of thought.
     
  3. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    I'm offended at the implication that to have faith you must be ignorant. I also find it offensive in a similar way when believers imply that being without faith indicates a lack of morality. Neither of those implications are well founded or necessarily true.

    That's a rather uninformed estimation, don't you think?
     
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  4. atanu

    atanu Member
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    I agree that what you say is true for true faith. When faith is based on knowledge it is unshakable and can move mountains. Probably this is not always the case. Sometimes faith can be very tentative. However, the materialist mind is yet blind.

    The materialist mind holds the objects of the senses to be truer and more lasting than the awareness that powers the senses. They hold onto a peculiar idea that the objects (brain chemicals) that the senses perceive are the creators of the senses. Which means that the dream that a materialist sees is itself creating the dream. That is the materialistic view.

    For me, OTOH, the sensual objects are dreamlike creations of the everlasting awareness. Objects come and go but the source of those creations does not. A materialist mind, distorts even Buddha's teaching that 'All things are transitory and without self', to mean that sensory objects objects are all there is, without any basis for their (temporary) existence. When Buddha teaches that "There is an unborn, uncreated, unformed that is the basis of all discernment", the so-called materialist Buddhists interpret that the Buddha's 'Unborn' is born of mediation practice, forgetting the basic definition 'the unborn'.

    So, to a mind that has never contemplated on creation of dream objects in dream and also never contemplated on the meaning of absence of objects before and after 'the bodily existence', our faith (knowledge) that there is a lasting basis for the 'world of objects', comes as blind faith to the materialist mind.

    Isha Upanishad
    O Pushan! O Sun, sole traveller of the heavens, controller of all, son of Creator Prajapati, withdraw Thy rays and gather up Thy burning effulgence. Now through Thy Grace I behold Thy blessed and glorious form. The Purusha (Effulgent Being) who dwells within Thee, I am He.​


     
    #24 atanu, Jun 9, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
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  5. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    You are correct. Faith is equivalent to trust. And though you can have blind faith or blind trust in someone or something, most people develop faith/trust as you say, over time and with experience. Faith/trust is earned through evidence. You put trust in an individual, because over time by their actions they have provided evidence that they are trustworthy.

    As a skeptic, the problem that I encounter is when I am talking with a theist and we're discussing the evidence for why I should trust in whatever god claim they are making, there comes a point at which they say something like, "You just have to have faith... or you just have to take it on faith..." because the evidence that I require to find the claim to be trustworthy isn't available. That is to say, at some point I must blindly trust or have blind faith in some aspect of their argument.
     
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That is exactly why I believe in Baha'u'llah, faith/trust earned through evidence. His actions over time have provided evidence that He was trustworthy. :D
     
  7. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Hi..........

    Your sentence, above, is a contradiction within itself.
    I have never heard of a Christian Knowledge, or Christian Certitude.
    Never......
     
  8. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Faith is trust, trust in what you believe. It is not knowledge, if it were knowledge it would not be faith.

    And of course the religious take (generalisation) on skepticism can also rather insulting.
     
  9. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    I keep hearing that. No one is confusing faith with knowledge, they are making the assumption that you can't have both. If you know a thing with out seeing it that is faith. Just because you can't see a thing doesn't mean that you are blind, the thing isn't there yet. Faith is built on trust. Blind faith is trusting without reason. Sometimes you just have to roll the dice. Sometimes you have no choice but to have faith without knowledge. Blind faith is trusting in something that you can't see because, not only is it not there but you are ignorant of it. You can't have real trust and faith in something you have no knowledge of.

    Give an example, please? Generalization is to be taken with a grain of salt. It's built upon experience. If you put your hand in fire enough times you get burned. It's built upon experience, which is intimate knowledge.
     
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  10. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    What about arrogance? You can have faith with or without knowledge and be arrogant. The former is just arrogance and the later, blind, is over confidence.
     
  11. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    a tree is known by it's fruit, not by it's trust. that is what knowledge is.

    belief is guessing. without knowledge we have to speculate. unfortunately some do not bother to test the belief, speculation.

    that is where the system breaks down and the sin of ignorance begins
     
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  12. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    So, though I can't yet see the fruit in winter time, I know the apple tree in my back yard will produce fruit in the summer. If that faith?

    Hmmm . . . Belief isn't guessing, belief is faith, that may or may not be based upon knowledge. Guessing is speculation and it can be educated or uneducated, i.e., blind or informed. Beliefs, whether informed or not, should be tested. I may be a confident builder of roller coasters but I ain't gettin' on the thing until it's safely tested.

    You can't have sin in ignorance. You can be ignorant of your sin, or of what sin is, but you can't sin in ignorance. If you don't know the law how can you sin against it?
     
  13. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    No assumption, sure you can have knowledge of something, or you can have faith in something. But knowledge kills faith

    Look up the definition of faith and that of knowledge, i think you will find there are incompatible aspects between the two definitions.

    Those who claim faith is fact based are insulting to those who have researched fact.
     
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  14. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    to love isn't that complicated. that is the law. ignorance of love is a sin.


    Proverbs 8:36
    But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

    Proverbs 10:12
    Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

    1 Peter 4:8
    Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.


    1 Corinthians 13
     
  15. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    You don't know, you assume based on past experience. They may be one or many reasons the tree does not produce fruit. Example where I live is walnut country, last year a series of storms just when the fruit was setting effectively destroyed the harvest.

    You are still laboring under the mistaken premise that faith is more than the definition.

    There is a point of law which boils down to "ignorance of the law is no excuse"
     
  16. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    New international version gives this:
    Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. 3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord.

    I think "fruits of the soil" just means "fruits that have been grown". It doesn't mean "rotten fruit" IMO.
    [And easy seen when common sense is used "one offers to please God; so rotten fruit is highly unlikely"]
     
    #36 stvdv, Jun 10, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
  17. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    I never understood why Abel's faith was greater than Cain's just looking at what they offered.

    Today I read it again, and saw it in a different light:
    6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

    Cain was full of hate. And God wants us to offer [give up] our hate. He does not care about fruits as an offering. And anyway fruits are given by God to us, so kind of silly to offer God his own stuff IMO. Seeing it in this new way, it finally makes sense to me.
     
    #37 stvdv, Jun 10, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
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  18. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Oh? Doubt, skepticism are essential, central
    to science, as I understand it.
     
  19. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Concerning the scriptural basis for Christianity the skeptics have good reason to question any claims of Christianity concerning the 'evidence' claimed that the gospels date and authorship, and the lack of provenance and authorship of Genesis and the Pentateuch that would make it reliable as a basis of revealed scripture, which the church fathers and unknown authors and editors of the gospels claimed a literal interpretation.

    Other than 'faith' what is the basis for this 'belief' and trust of the scripture?
     
  20. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    The problem from the skeptics perspective is the lack of provenance and authorship of Genesis and the Pentateuch that remotely demonstrate it as history and whether Cain and Abel were in reality real persons in history.
     
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