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Faith without proof

dan

Well-Known Member
OK, I have to agree with trinity in that faith cannot be defined as belief void of reason. No one really has that kind of faith. Faith is accompanied with reason, but not built exclusively upon it. The faithful love that reason subtantiates their faith (as it always does), but do not rely on reason to sustain them. It is naive to say that faith is believing for no reason. This is someone who does not understand what faith is, nor cares to understand, but will enjoy passing judgment upon the faithful. Geez.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
dan said:
OK, I have to agree with trinity in that faith cannot be defined as belief void of reason. No one really has that kind of faith.
Sure they do

Jim Jones Church
Andrea yates
The Manson Family

I could go on but I`m late..
 

HelpMe

·´sociopathic meanderer`·
isn't faith simply a belief in the unforseen?i mean really.

you don't have faith in the fact that you are reading this(although it may be said you have faith in your eyes), you have faith that it's not about to turn vulgar or licentious.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
isn't faith simply a belief in the unforseen?i mean really.

you don't have faith in the fact that you are reading this(although it may be said you have faith in your eyes), you have faith that it's not about to turn vulgar or licentious.
I wouldn`t equate that with "Faith".
I had faith your post wouldn`t be obnoxious because I`ve seen many of your posts and they haven`t been so.
I have faith it wouldn`t be vulgar because this forums system doesn`t allow certain words to be shown.

****.

See?

Thats not real faith.
Thats faith based on rationality.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
linwood said:
Sure they do

Jim Jones Church
Andrea yates
The Manson Family

I could go on but I`m late..
Have they informed you that their faith was accompanied by no logic and reason whatsoever, or are you just assuming that that is the case? Assumption has little room in matters of reason.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
dan said:
Have they informed you that their faith was accompanied by no logic and reason whatsoever, or are you just assuming that that is the case? Assumption has little room in matters of reason.
There`s no need.

In these three examples these peoples faith led to murder, suicide, and infanticide.

It is my opinion these three crimes when done for no gain cannot be based on reason as they unnecessarily led to the deaths of innocents.

For no other reason than to feed someones ego.

There`s no rationality there.

Edit:

Actually at least two members of the Manson family have stated they could not give a reason for what they did.

Many who survied Guyana said the same.

Andrea yates has since claimed she was wrong and couldn`t understand her reasons now.

So..yes..they have.
 

HelpMe

·´sociopathic meanderer`·
thanks, i still think it's faith.the rationality is there, but the cause for it is not 100% certain(like the fact that you are typing on a keyboard and w/e key you hit will pop up).people can break those rules, i as a matter of fact am off top edit one of my posts that may of been viewed as inappropriate.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
linwood said:
There`s no need.

In these three examples these peoples faith led to murder, suicide, and infanticide.

It is my opinion these three crimes when done for no gain cannot be based on reason as they unnecessarily led to the deaths of innocents.

For no other reason than to feed someones ego.

There`s no rationality there.

Edit:

Actually at least two members of the Manson family have stated they could not give a reason for what they did.

Many who survied Guyana said the same.

Andrea yates has since claimed she was wrong and couldn`t understand her reasons now.

So..yes..they have.
First, murder is perfectly logical and rational. One person termintates the life of another. I fail to see any catch 22s or any paradoxes of logic. It is only irrational when morals are brought into the equation, but morals have nothing to do whatsoever with logic.

Secondly, comparing mentally deranged people with the faithful is a bit of a false analogy. The insane do not operate under faith. No one knows for sure what motivates them, including themselves, so saying, "Look! Charles Manson said faith is the reason and the only reason, so everyone with faith is the same way!" is kind of an insult to my and your own intelligence. I've never had my bishop tell me to carve a cross into my forehead. That's not really a facet of faith; nor are those people shining examples of it. They did not have faith, they had mental problems.

Again, present a case devoid of blatant logical fallacies in order to be taken seriously.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
linwood said:
I wouldn`t equate that with "Faith".
I had faith your post wouldn`t be obnoxious because I`ve seen many of your posts and they haven`t been so.
I have faith it wouldn`t be vulgar because this forums system doesn`t allow certain words to be shown.

****.

See?

Thats not real faith.
Thats faith based on rationality.
Who said real faith cannot be rational?
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
dan said:
First, murder is perfectly logical and rational. One person termintates the life of another.
The act is irrational if nothing is gained and all is lost as was the case in these acts.
The Manson family gained nothing and risked everything for their faith in Charlie.



Secondly, comparing mentally deranged people with the faithful is a bit of a false analogy.
Thats an opinion.

I've never had my bishop tell me to carve a cross into my forehead. That's not really a facet of faith; nor are those people shining examples of it. They did not have faith, they had mental problems.
Because it is not your faith doesn`t mean it isn`t faith.
I don`t believe all 900 people who died at Guyana had mental probelms other than their faith.

Again, present a case devoid of blatant logical fallacies in order to be taken seriously.
I have, it doesn`t matter to me how you take it.

My point is that "Blind faith" is a mental problem.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
dan said:
Who said real faith cannot be rational?
I do, I`m refering to the extremity of blind faith.

Faith with no natural evdence.

That is after all what faith really is.
 

Melody

Well-Known Member
Circle_One said:
I thought this may spark an interesting debate and one I'd like to hear all sides on.

If believing in God requires faith without proof, how is that different from believing in any unsubstantiated anthropomorphic being such as the tooth fairy , leprachauns or Santa Claus?

What is everyone's take on this?
I could waste endless hours debating this but it would be rather pointless since the question appears to be facetious. Discussing faith with a nonbeliever is a pointless task. I would merely point you to the Bible.
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
Melody said:
I would merely point you to the Bible.
And where then will you point when someone brings your blind faith in the bible to light? Please Melody, by all means humor us. I am interested in your premise for rationalizing this statement.
 

Circle_One

Well-Known Member
Discussing faith with a nonbeliever is a pointless task.
And I point you Melody to a thread you made in which you said there was a lot of "mockery" about Christians on this site. This quote right here just proves that you are the close-minded one. Simply because I do not believe in your faith does not mean I know nothing of it. I am perfectly capable of discussing Christianity with the best of them as I have studied it thouroughly.

Never have I sat around saying MY beliefs were the 'one and only true path' because I think that it wrong. My beliefs are the true path FOR ME. Whereas your beliefs are the true path FOR YOU. It is unfair of you to be so swelled by pride of your faith (And by all means, be proud of your faith, I am proud of mine), that you cannot even bring yourself to discuss it with someone who's beliefs differ from yours.
 
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