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Faith without proof

browser

New Member
Some people require proof before they believe.
Some people require no proof because they believe.
Some people require no proof because they don't believe.
Some people just don't care.
If it could be proven one way or the other, we would not be talking about it.
The reason religion has lasted so long is because of it's ambiguity.
You can make it say whatever you wish, a passage to fit all occasions, read into it
whatever you need.
A bit like a questionnaire, which answer you want, depends on how you ask the question,
you can get a 'Yes' or a 'No' from the same question.
I don't know enough about religious books to give an example, but this should suffice.
The question is 'should we bring back conscription?' (the Draft in the US)
Question:
Young people are so lazy, do you think we should bring back conscription?
Answer: Yes.
Question:
Do you think we should waste our money bringing back conscription?
Answer: No.

The good books have most bases covered, the ones not covered, don't need to be covered,
the existence of a God is one of them, because believers have a little thing called 'Faith'
that word will smash every argument 'for' or 'against' as required.

And the lord said 'Let there be light', and there was light, and you could see for miles.
 

Circle_One

Well-Known Member
browser said:
Some people require proof before they believe.
Some people require no proof because they believe.
Some people require no proof because they don't believe.
Some people just don't care.
If it could be proven one way or the other, we would not be talking about it.
The reason religion has lasted so long is because of it's ambiguity.
You can make it say whatever you wish, a passage to fit all occasions, read into it
whatever you need.
A bit like a questionnaire, which answer you want, depends on how you ask the question,
you can get a 'Yes' or a 'No' from the same question.
I don't know enough about religious books to give an example, but this should suffice.
The question is 'should we bring back conscription?' (the Draft in the US)
Question:
Young people are so lazy, do you think we should bring back conscription?
Answer: Yes.
Question:
Do you think we should waste our money bringing back conscription?
Answer: No.

The good books have most bases covered, the ones not covered, don't need to be covered, the existence of a God is one of them, because people have a little thing called 'Faith'
that word will smash every argument 'for' of 'against' as required.

And the lord said 'Let there be light', and there was light, and you could see for miles.
Wow, extremely well said!
 

dan

Well-Known Member
Have you ever tried to explain to a girl that her boyfriend is using her or cheating on her? Isn't it funny that she never believes what you say no matter what proof you give her? It's because she doesn't want to believe, and this is a legitimate psychological condition that affects billions of people in different degrees all over the world. You don't believe because you don't want to, and no amount of proof in the world could change your mind. The "proof" you speak of isa a very subjective thing, so please don't generalize it. All the semantics you can spout may make you feel better about yourself, but that's where their influence ends. Your truth makes you happy, but don't overstep your bounds by telling me what my truth has to be.

It's also not a good idea to belittle people's faith (a la "little thing called faith"). The faithful are not any less intelligent or deluded than anyone else in this world. The funny thing is, the most intelligent people are often people of faith. Albert Einstein was once asked what it was like to be the smartest man alive. He replied, "I don't know. Go ask James Talmage." Mr. Talmage was an Apostle for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints at the time, and infinitely more intelligent than any of the people currently heaping loads of indignant condescension upon the faithful.

A common misconception is that all faithful people acquired their faith through the same esoteric, vague pseudo-knowledge that were accused of clinging to. Many of us have perfectly logic reasoning to back up our faith, but this melee of misunderstanding and self-righteous litany is not the most hospitable of arenas in which to lob an example of this reasoning. If you would like to have an intelligent exchange of ideas instead of a session intellectual masturbation then make your case, but please avoid false-analogies and the ever-prevelant dicto simpliciter.
 
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cardero

Citizen Mod
“Faith is believing in things when common sense tells you not to.”

-- George Seaton



“A Great Escape into faith is no retreat to safety. It is nothing less than surrender.”

-- Dan Barker, Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist

Faith is INCORRECT, and is a human-made term. Faith is an excuse bestowed on people by themselves or another individual who is supposed to K(NOW), but doesn't. Never would I ask this of any of MY creations, and I would BE cautious of anyone who was asking it of ME. Anyone asking you to have faith in something because they don't UNDERSTAND something should not BE sharing this belief with other individuals.

Faith automatically stops individuals from PROVING UNDERSTANDING for themselves. Faith is another way of saying " you will just have to take my word for it," which is contrary to belief and detrimental to UNDERSTANDING. Faith is not trust or TRUTH. Faith is not free. In fact, faith is very expensive and taxing to the soul that is trying to develop UNDERSTANDING. Why should YOU have faith that the sun will come up tomorrow when YOU K(NOW) it would BE just as easy to PROVE it tomorrow when it does come up? Get out from under faith. It is not necessary to UNDERSTANDING. It is not necessary to BEing.-GOD
From Hello It's Me: An Interview With GOD
Chapter: Belief, Faith, Hope, JOY Page 167
 

nightwolf

Member
I feel this is where all religions come to one place that is real and the proof is there. Christians pray and ask for devine intervention when something needs to be accomplished, I meditate and work with the devine and my own energies when something needs to be accomplished and other religions do similar things. I have seen alot of things in my 30 years of life that helped me believe in what I do today. I have never one time in my life believed in something I have not saw or worked with. I have this ongoing debate with my mother who is Christian that I am all wrong in my beliefs to the point she has wanted to knock my lights out. She says her beliefs are real because she feels conviction, well I feel those energies build too. She tells me they are coming from a bad place, I tell her if I am doing things out of bad energy then it will come to haunt me 10 times (karma). I ask her when she gets down on her knees to pray at night if she knows for certain we are not using the same God to pray to? She has no answer. I pray to a God
goddess. I try and tell her that her God has feminine qualities if she believes he created all (flowers for one). I guess my point is this, we can have it be said there is no proof of something and just because that is said its working in someones life every day. I hear on TV on the Christian channels how someone had cancer and a congregation prayed for that person and they went into remission, that is there belief system at work for them and to me is proof that something intervened in that situation. Maybe this is an group effort with our own energies at work, but this is something NO one will ever know till the time has come!
 

robtex

Veteran Member
Ceridwen018 said:
You say that the Tooth Fairy and Santa can be proven wrong, basically because we find alternative causes (our parents) for the actions which were attributed to them. Given that the only evidence for these entities was the physical result of their supposed actions, the only actual evidence being the money and presents, we can therefore conclude that this evidence does not belong to these entities after all. This means that there is no credible (physical) evidence for Santa and the Tooth Fairy, and a lack of evidence in science and logical thinking warrants a lack of existence.

Now then--the acclaimed 'physical evidence' that we have of a supreme being, involves natural phenomena. Back in the day, it used to be lightning. Now, we seem to have lightning explained, and abiogenesis, etc., is the new problem. What I'm getting at here, (and it's taking me awfully long to spit it out, isn't it? :) ), is that if we take a look at history, we find that all things which have been attributed to god have eventually been explained by scientific or natural means. Because so many things have been shown to be caused by something other than the direct hand of god, we can assume that those things which we still need answers for will follow the same pattern, due to the concept of probability, i.e., we can conclude that this 'evidence' does not belong to god after all, and a lack of evidence in science and logical thinking warrants a lack of existence.

To tie this back to the original topic, my point is just to caution you. The concept of a higher being, as we already stated, is no different than that of the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus where physical evidence and the natural world are concerned. Therefore, if you can logically deduce that the Tooth fairy and Santa do not exist, due to their lack of evidence, you must do the same for god.
I loved this post. I wanted to use it to illustrate a point if I may. Looking at Santa Claus. Say your mother comes into your roommate one day and says there is no santa claus. The fact of the matter is that your father and I put the toys under the tree every year. What has changed in your reality is the of how the toys got under the trees but irregardless if your mother brings them your father does or your uncle who lives up the street brings them...there is still the issue of the toys. They are still there. That is reality that is undeniable.

To be an atheist you are saying their is not toy-maker. That the toys are self made and autonomoulsly created themselves and manufactor themselves. Those that believe in God (self included) say there is a toymaker. Realize that to say the toys are self created without any outside influence is at this point a belief as surely as my saying that there is a toymaker who created them.

(btw you are so getting coal in your stocking for saying santa does not exist....) :tsk:

(special thanks to Ivan in his insight in prep of this post).
 

SoulTYPE

Well-Known Member
(Off topic) There is an italian lady called Strega Nonna who puts coals in sacks.

On Topic- anyways, Santa is almost classified as a mythical character. So are the easter Bunny and Tooth fairy. now, may I ask, if kids are told to believe those characters are real, they generally grow up to realize the truth that they don't. Now, if a kid is told to believe in God, would he/she grow up to cease belief in God? It is the same principle.
 

Circle_One

Well-Known Member
SoulTYPE01 said:
(Off topic) There is an italian lady called Strega Nonna who puts coals in sacks.
(Also Off topic) In Italian, Strega means witch.

On Topic- anyways, Santa is almost classified as a mythical character. So are the easter Bunny and Tooth fairy. now, may I ask, if kids are told to believe those characters are real, they generally grow up to realize the truth that they don't. Now, if a kid is told to believe in God, would he/she grow up to cease belief in God? It is the same principle.
I think the reason kids grow up to realize Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy don't exist is 1)because their parents eventually let them in on that little secret, or 2) If their parents never told them they didn't exist, they would hear it from their peers, etc. Whereas, it's not general widespread knowledge that God doesn't exist.
 

browser

New Member
Dan,
You said this:
Many of us have perfectly logic reasoning to back up our faith,
but this melee of misunderstanding and self-righteous litany is not the most
hospitable of arenas in which to lob an example of this reasoning.
If you would like to have an intelligent exchange of ideas instead of a session
intellectual masturbation then make your case, but please avoid false-analogies
and the ever-prevelant dicto simpliciter.

I think I might have touched a nerve somewhere,
for a start, if you have 'Faith', you will not need logic, even if I could prove to
you, with logic, that it was all a lie, you could still say that you believed it anyway,
as do the 'Flat earth society' or the people who believe the earth is only 6000
years old, they have no use for 'Logic', and trying to force a point with verbal
diarrhea, will get us absolutely nowhere, if a point can be made with words of
one syllable, even more people will understand.

And as for ' Albert Einstein was once asked what it was like to be the smartest
man alive. He replied, "I don't know. Go ask James Talmage' who heard him say
that? James Talmage?, I suspect that has been used a few times about a lot of
people, most of them Apostles for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I realise this is just a talking shop, and we are not talking to each other to try
and change each others minds, and I was not trying to belittle anyone,
it seems no matter what people write, someone will take it the wrong way.
I am an Atheist, just by writing that I have offended someone, all religions are just
fairy stories, that's more offence I have caused, the good books have been written
and re-written, translated and re-translated so many times, maybe the original words
are gone forever, yet still people seem to struggle over every word, as if they came
directly from their God!! but it seems I am not allowed to be amazed by all of this,
I am not allowed to find this even the slightest bit strange.
 

Trinity

Member
browser said:
Dan,
I think I might have touched a nerve somewhere,
for a start, if you have 'Faith', you will not need logic, even if I could prove to
you, with logic, that it was all a lie, you could still say that you believed it anyway,
as do the 'Flat earth society' or the people who believe the earth is only 6000
years old, they have no use for 'Logic', and trying to force a point with verbal
diarrhea, will get us absolutely nowhere, if a point can be made with words of
one syllable, even more people will understand.
This is not exactly true. Faith must be based on reason, and reason on faith. If this seems to be a circular argument, you are right. To try and know anything COMPLETELY by faith, there will be major breaks from reality. An attempt to know things only by reason, will give one the perception that they can know everything. The most brilliant people are those who know that they do not know everything. This is uncomfortable place for people to rest (in uncertainty), but that does not make it reality.
 

nightwolf

Member
I just ask someone to dispel an obe then (out of body experience). Or dispel the fact that when energies are pulled together and used to accomplish something, they work. Yes in religion there are alot of things no one knows, we have to push forward with the gut feeling we are doing the right thing to fulfill our own belief system.

I believe anything thats makes us gather in this world that is so rushed we hardly have time for our families anymore (christmas, thought of santa) has to be a great thing.

There are people documented all over the internet that went through therapy in past life studies. If we were all people without spirit, past life studies would be nothing more then a joke. These people recall real things, events, family members and things of the sort. The human spirit in its own rite I believe is enough to believe in something. We are very powerful beings without devine intervention, a group of people with just the will to get it done will have an influence on events.

These people like santa and the tooth fiery for example are just symbols of something. Children have a very active imagination, so feeding them characters to represent something just brings them joy and something to look forward to, whether it is real or not.
 

Circle_One

Well-Known Member
nightwolf said:
There are people documented all over the internet that went through therapy in past life studies. If we were all people without spirit, past life studies would be nothing more then a joke. These people recall real things, events, family members and things of the sort. The human spirit in its own rite I believe is enough to believe in something. We are very powerful beings without devine intervention, a group of people with just the will to get it done will have an influence on events.
I believe in past lives and have read extensively on the subject, however I feel for the most part with regards to these studies, one must take them at face value. I'm not sure if all, but most past life therapy sessions are done with hypnosis, and one must always remember when reading about things such as past lives, that people are very open to suggestion under hypnosis. It would be extremely easy for the therapist to instill these "memories" into the minds of the patients without the patients knowledge while hypnotized as a means of "proving" the past life theory.
 

fromthe heart

Well-Known Member
robtex said:
I loved this post. I wanted to use it to illustrate a point if I may. Looking at Santa Claus. Say your mother comes into your roommate one day and says there is no santa claus. The fact of the matter is that your father and I put the toys under the tree every year. What has changed in your reality is the of how the toys got under the trees but irregardless if your mother brings them your father does or your uncle who lives up the street brings them...there is still the issue of the toys. They are still there. That is reality that is undeniable.

To be an atheist you are saying their is not toy-maker. That the toys are self made and autonomoulsly created themselves and manufactor themselves. Those that believe in God (self included) say there is a toymaker. Realize that to say the toys are self created without any outside influence is at this point a belief as surely as my saying that there is a toymaker who created them.

(btw you are so getting coal in your stocking for saying santa does not exist....) :tsk:

Coal isn't that bad...coal burn,makes heat,keeps us warm...boy is it cold out there.;)
 

robtex

Veteran Member
fromthe heart said:
Coal isn't that bad...coal burn,makes heat,keeps us warm...boy is it cold out there.;)
good to know!! i am forwarding your post to the north pole!! thanks for the update!!
 

dan

Well-Known Member
browser said:
Dan,
You said this:
Many of us have perfectly logic reasoning to back up our faith,
but this melee of misunderstanding and self-righteous litany is not the most
hospitable of arenas in which to lob an example of this reasoning.
If you would like to have an intelligent exchange of ideas instead of a session
intellectual masturbation then make your case, but please avoid false-analogies
and the ever-prevelant dicto simpliciter.

I think I might have touched a nerve somewhere,
for a start, if you have 'Faith', you will not need logic, even if I could prove to
you, with logic, that it was all a lie, you could still say that you believed it anyway,
as do the 'Flat earth society' or the people who believe the earth is only 6000
years old, they have no use for 'Logic', and trying to force a point with verbal
diarrhea, will get us absolutely nowhere, if a point can be made with words of
one syllable, even more people will understand.

And as for ' Albert Einstein was once asked what it was like to be the smartest
man alive. He replied, "I don't know. Go ask James Talmage' who heard him say
that? James Talmage?, I suspect that has been used a few times about a lot of
people, most of them Apostles for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I realise this is just a talking shop, and we are not talking to each other to try
and change each others minds, and I was not trying to belittle anyone,
it seems no matter what people write, someone will take it the wrong way.
I am an Atheist, just by writing that I have offended someone, all religions are just
fairy stories, that's more offence I have caused, the good books have been written
and re-written, translated and re-translated so many times, maybe the original words
are gone forever, yet still people seem to struggle over every word, as if they came
directly from their God!! but it seems I am not allowed to be amazed by all of this,
I am not allowed to find this even the slightest bit strange.
I agree with you that meticulate exegesis is stupid considering the vast number of manipulations pretty much all scripture has been through.
 
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