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Faith without proof

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Circle_One, Dec 14, 2004.

  1. Circle_One

    Circle_One Well-Known Member

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    I thought this may spark an interesting debate and one I'd like to hear all sides on.

    If believing in God requires faith without proof, how is that different from believing in any unsubstantiated anthropomorphic being such as the tooth fairy , leprachauns or Santa Claus?

    What is everyone's take on this?
     
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  2. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    There really isn't a difference except that the Tooth Fairy doesn't have a religion built around her...as far as i know:)
     
  3. fromthe heart

    fromthe heart Well-Known Member

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    This is just my view but when God sent Jesus to fulfill prophesy didn't that make it more provable than say the tooth fairy?
     
  4. Circle_One

    Circle_One Well-Known Member

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    That is quite true, but in the same respect, the only "proof" we have that God truly did send Jesus is the Bible which, for all anyone knows, could have been written by anyone. It could only be stories passed down from generation to generation, just as stories of the tooth fairy and Santa claus.
     
  5. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    That is if you believe Jesus fulfilled prophesy...or for some...even existed at all.
     
  6. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    Hey, I believe in enough anthropmoric personifications to make that argument feasable.(Curse you "Sandman" and "Discworld" series!) I would say, though, that it is not faith without proof. I take my proof in the goddess and diety whenever I commune with nature.
     
  7. fromthe heart

    fromthe heart Well-Known Member

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    I think that's part of believing without proof...to prove ourselves true to God...should you believe in Him. Most of us are pretty sure there is no tooth fairy...but if one searches ones soul most aren't so quick to say they will not accept it could be truth.
     
  8. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Oh there's proof. It happens to be spiritual and not physical.

    Ephesians 1:17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,

    Here's to the "eyes of your heart". ;)
     
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  9. fromthe heart

    fromthe heart Well-Known Member

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    Very good point.:)
     
  10. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    for the time.

    there was/is not to be a sign beyond the man of nearly 2k years ago.
     
  11. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    As far as physical proof goes, however, there is no difference. Do we agree on that?
     
  12. Circle_One

    Circle_One Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree on that. That was pretty much the point of my writing this. I, personally think there is not much difference because there isn't, and can never *really* be physical proof for either God/s or such things as Santa Claus.

    I too have faith in things with no physical proof, I just wanted to hear other opinions on this topic.
     
  13. goodjewishboy

    goodjewishboy Shalom!

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    Interesting point, perhaps its because our parents eventually tell us that the tooth fairy, santa, etc. is a hoax. Unless the existance G-d is proven or disproven it will always be a matter of faith.
     
  14. Circle_One

    Circle_One Well-Known Member

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    But just as our parents eventually tell us that such things do not exist, why is it when others say our certain faiths or beliefs do not exist, we do not automatically stop believing in them?
     
  15. goodjewishboy

    goodjewishboy Shalom!

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    How much respect do you have for your parents, how much do you trust them? How much do you believe a random person on the street telling you anything? especially about G-d. Like I said before, It's all a matter of faith.

    Edit: I'm not sure the above entirely makes sense, I'm trying to say that you can prove Santa/Toothfairy is a hoax. I was awake when my mom put money under my pillow for my tooth when I was young; however, so far the existance of G-d has been unprovable without faith.
     
  16. Circle_One

    Circle_One Well-Known Member

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    What you said makes complete sense. I understand what you're getting at. Just like if, as children we were first taught to believe in God, but thereafter, our parents told us He didn't exist, most children would take their parents' word over the word of a stranger.
     
  17. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    You say that the Tooth Fairy and Santa can be proven wrong, basically because we find alternative causes (our parents) for the actions which were attributed to them. Given that the only evidence for these entities was the physical result of their supposed actions, the only actual evidence being the money and presents, we can therefore conclude that this evidence does not belong to these entities after all. This means that there is no credible (physical) evidence for Santa and the Tooth Fairy, and a lack of evidence in science and logical thinking warrants a lack of existence.

    Now then--the acclaimed 'physical evidence' that we have of a supreme being, involves natural phenomena. Back in the day, it used to be lightning. Now, we seem to have lightning explained, and abiogenesis, etc., is the new problem. What I'm getting at here, (and it's taking me awfully long to spit it out, isn't it? :) ), is that if we take a look at history, we find that all things which have been attributed to god have eventually been explained by scientific or natural means. Because so many things have been shown to be caused by something other than the direct hand of god, we can assume that those things which we still need answers for will follow the same pattern, due to the concept of probability, i.e., we can conclude that this 'evidence' does not belong to god after all, and a lack of evidence in science and logical thinking warrants a lack of existence.

    To tie this back to the original topic, my point is just to caution you. The concept of a higher being, as we already stated, is no different than that of the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus where physical evidence and the natural world are concerned. Therefore, if you can logically deduce that the Tooth fairy and Santa do not exist, due to their lack of evidence, you must do the same for god.
     
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  18. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    My dear Ceridwen...
    Your premise has a hole. You can't say that ALL things have eventually been explained. The "spark" of life has yet to be adequately empiricized by science to name just one.

    If the premise is false, so are the conclusions.

    As we have both said before, you can not prove nor disprove God using the Scientific method. Well, at least not with a straight face. :D
     
  19. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Muchas gracias, NetDoc, you are correct. I even mentioned the 'spark of life' by way of abiogenesis as one of those things which we have yet to figure out. The word 'all' is certainly out of place--a slip up on my part. :)
     
  20. Lintu

    Lintu Active Member

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    Isn't the point of faith that we have no proof?
     
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