Faith vs. Blind Faith

[ThePainefulTruth]

Faith is a word to signify our emotional engines. It's a necessary partner to reason. Reason should be the captain at the helm, while faith is the motive power. Without the former, we run off course and eventually end up on the rocks; and without the motivation of faith, we're dead in the water ending with the same fate.

Faith that denies the use of reason is blind faith.

Most faith, as the various supernatural, revealed religions use the term, is blind faith since the only basis for belief is the ancient hearsay of fallible, often corrupt, men. Most claims to having received the word of God directly from God can be dismissed as self-serving inventions or lies. Some may honestly believe they have talked to God, but they can offer no reason anyone else can believe them, or further, can claim knowledge that their witness isn't a form of hallucination.

I think that there are only two possible, reasonable (reasoned), positions on the existence of God: agnostic atheism, and agnostic deism, where agnostic means lack of certainty. From our perspective in this universe, there's no difference between the two--except hope. In either case there is no true, non-hearsay evidence for or against God. Both mandate the use of reason in this imminently reasonable, rational universe. But mankind has spent most of its existence being led away from reason by a few demagogues amongst us.

 

[wizanda]

Seems you're missing the definition of faith, which means 'to trust'.... So someone who is faithful, is the same as someone who is trustworthy.

The reason blind faith has become the meaning of 'the faith', is because Paul bastardized the word faith, by applying 'the faith' to meaning believing in his religious ideology about the death of jesus.

Faith is a feeling from the heart, high rise builders have faith, mountain climbers have faith, and if they climb with another climber, they have faith in the other persons abilities....

So clearly it isn't only blind faith that exists, as you'd never climb with someone, without first testing it.

Then there are people who have first hand experience of God, and the religious texts often lead them astray more than anything, with lots of made up rubbish within them.

Most faith, as the various supernatural, revealed religions use the term, is blind faith since the only basis for belief is the ancient hearsay of fallible, often corrupt, men..

Find you're redefining words to suit your opinions or misconceptions, based on being brought up in a religious environment.

A belief is something from the mind, which can be reasoned out.
Faith is from the heart, you either trust something or you don't.

The reason for saying raised in religious environment, is because again Christianity has done a lot to mingle the words faith and belief, as if they're meaning the same thing, and they don't have to have anything to even do with God.

Most claims to having received the word of God directly from God can be dismissed as self-serving inventions or lies.

Fair enough people making up religious text, and claiming it is from God, is dubious without evidence....

Yet millions of people have mini miracles all the time, loads of people believe, and have possibly heard God....

So there faith isn't blind, it isn't Agnostic which means without knowledge, they've had clear knowledge (Gnostic) of the event...

Who cares about trying to substantiate it to other people, only religious people do that; whereas there is millions who just have it as their own personal evidence.

 

[Thief]

I picture the hour when I stand from this carcass.....
and God and heaven will turn to have a look....

there may be a question....
What do you believe?

followed by....
Who told you that?.....and WHY! did you believe it!!!!!

they will then squash me like a bug....
and then go hunting the bugger that deceived me.

or maybe I know better and will get the answer right!!!!!!

 

[Thief]

it is written....
Trust no one.....question everything.

 

[Sunstone]

Seems you're missing the definition of faith, which means 'to trust'.... So someone who is faithful, is the same as someone who is trustworthy.

ROFL!

 

[DawudTalut]

.....Faith that denies the use of reason is blind faith.

Peace be on you.
Quran:
[16:13] And He has pressed into service for you the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; and the stars too have been pressed into service by His command. Surely, in that are Signs for a people who make use of their reason.

Most faith, as the various supernatural, revealed religions use the term, is blind faith since the only basis for belief is the ancient hearsay of fallible, often corrupt, men. Most claims to having received the word of God directly from God can be dismissed as self-serving inventions or lies. Some may honestly believe they have talked to God, but they can offer no reason anyone else can believe them, or further, can claim knowledge that their witness isn't a form of hallucination.

God in Islam still speaks:
[41:31] As for those who say, ‘Our Lord is Allah,’ and then remain steadfast, the angels descend on them, saying: ‘Fear ye not, nor grieve; and rejoice in the Garden that you were promised.
[41:32] ‘We are your friends in this life and in the Hereafter. Therein you will have all that your souls will desire, and therein you will have all that you will ask for —
[41:33] ‘An entertainment from the Most Forgiving, the Merciful.’

I think that there are only two possible, reasonable (reasoned), positions on the existence of God: agnostic atheism, and agnostic deism, where agnostic means lack of certainty. From our perspective in this universe, there's no difference between the two--except hope. In either case there is no true, non-hearsay evidence for or against God. Both mandate the use of reason in this imminently reasonable, rational universe. But mankind has spent most of its existence being led away from reason by a few demagogues amongst us.

From observing various intelligent designs in universe, one more than strongly feels that there is some Maker.
In Islam, God speaks in various ways and provides knowledge, then that feeling become surety and certainty that God exists.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Seems you're missing the definition of faith, which means 'to trust'.... So someone who is faithful, is the same as someone who is trustworthy.

"Faithful", as you use it there, is essentially the same thing as loyal. But faithful or loyal to what and on what basis. One could be faithful or loyal to evil.

The reason blind faith has become the meaning of 'the faith', is because Paul bastardized the word faith, by applying 'the faith' to meaning believing in his religious ideology about the death of jesus

Yes, there's something to that, but "faith" has become a word that is applied to all religions.

Faith is a feeling from the heart, high rise builders have faith, mountain climbers have faith, and if they climb with another climber, they have faith in the other persons abilities....

Yes, and that faith isn't blind, it's based on experience and knowledge.

So clearly it isn't only blind faith that exists, as you'd never climb with someone, without first testing it.

Yet people believe by the billions without testing it.

Then there are people who have first hand experience of God, and the religious texts often lead them astray more than anything, with lots of made up rubbish within them.

How can they know it's first hand experience and not delusion without external validation?

Find you're redefining words to suit your opinions or misconceptions, based on being brought up in a religious environment.

I've separated faith from blind faith after the revealed religions used the two interchangeably for millennia. And it wouldn't matter if I was brought up in a religious environment or not. Faith has always had the potential to be blind, and usually is.

A belief is something from the mind, which can be reasoned out.
Faith is from the heart, you either trust something or you don't.

Trust based on reason or not. But yes, faith is essentially our motivating emotions. The question is are they being guided by reason.

Fair enough people making up religious text, and claiming it is from God, is dubious without evidence....
Yet millions of people have mini miracles all the time, loads of people believe, and have possibly heard God....

Yet not one can offer the first bit of non-hearsay evidence. And so far all of those mini miracles can be written off a coincidence and misperception.

So there faith isn't blind, it isn't Agnostic which means without knowledge, they've had clear knowledge (Gnostic) of the event...

Name one that isn't more likely coincidence, misperception, or just going against the odds. A miracle is a violation of natural law by divine will. So far, we've been unable to show one such violation, and there's no evidence for or against a God or divine will.

Someone thinks they were spared some horrific fate, and since they're the most important person on Earth (to them), it must have been God' intervention. Add the lack of any critical, reasoned observation and voila, "It's a Miracle!"

Who cares about trying to substantiate it to other people, only religious people do that; whereas there is millions who just have it as their own personal evidence.

Because other equally undiscerning people believe them, and next thing you know, they're burning witches, or decapitating infidels, and based on what--blind faith.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Peace be on you.
Quran:
[16:13] And He has pressed into service for you the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; and the stars too have been pressed into service by His command. Surely, in that are Signs for a people who make use of their reason.

There is no evidence that they have been pressed into service any more than they just happen to be nearby to where we evolved.

God in Islam still speaks:

Anything that follows is pure hearsay. Same with, "Thus sayeth the Lord". For some reason, the Lord or God doesn't speak for Itself. And I think that reason is pretty obvious: either God doesn't exist or God doesn't interact in the universe.

From observing various intelligent designs in universe, one more than strongly feels that there is some Maker.

Name one "intelligent design" that isn't just as likely coincidence.

In Islam, God speaks in various ways and provides knowledge, then that feeling become surety and certainty that God exists.

What you've just described is emotions (feelings) becoming "knowledge" without reason.

 

[Magic Man]

In the religious sense, faith is blind faith. It means to believe something without evidence. When a Christian, for example, is having doubts because of something bad that happened, people will encourage them by saying "you just have to have faith". The whole point of having faith is to believe in God despite or regardless of a lack of evidence. That's blind faith.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

I picture the hour when I stand from this carcass.....
and God and heaven will turn to have a look....

there may be a question....
What do you believe?

followed by....
Who told you that?.....and WHY! did you believe it!!!!!

they will then squash me like a bug....
and then go hunting the bugger that deceived me.

or maybe I know better and will get the answer right!!!!!!

it is written....
Trust no one.....question everything.

Yes, but above it all, Truth is God, wherever that leads.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

In the religious sense, faith is blind faith. It means to believe something without evidence. When a Christian, for example, is having doubts because of something bad that happened, people will encourage them by saying "you just have to have faith". The whole point of having faith is to believe in God despite or regardless of a lack of evidence. That's blind faith.

Are you saying that's a good thing?

 

[Magic Man]

Are you saying that's a good thing?

No, faith in the religious sense is a bad thing. The other definition of faith, which is another word for trust, is a good thing, but the "believe in something without evidence" definition is not good and is counter to reason.

 

[DawudTalut]

Name one "intelligent design" that isn't just as likely coincidence.

More than one can be given:
For examples:
""The ears of the owl are not only in line with an overall complicated design but they also stand out among all animal ears. The right and left outer ears in an owl are directed slightly differently in bearing to each other.This difference in their orientation is so well-measured and precisely designed as to serve a specific purpose. The slightest random variation in this intricate design could have rendered them useless. The sounds they emit to the internal ear are transmitted to the brain which deciphers them perfectly despite their complexity. The whole system is so unique and precise in its intricacies as enables the owl to hunt for its prey in absolute darkness without ever making a mistake.

Intrigued by this uncanny ability of the owl, the scientific community of the world has performed the fantastic task of exactly defining the owl's hearing system with the most sophisticated electronic devices. To our knowledge the greatest work on this was carried out by Masakazu Konishi, Bing Professor of Behavioural Biology at the California Institute of Technology and his colleagues. Their work was published inScientific American, April 1993. 4 Although we bank largely on this article for the following information our brief description does not do justice to the great intricate work. Anyone interested in more scientific and mathematical data would be amply rewarded by reading that great scholarly thesis.""

More @ https://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_5_section_12.html

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Faith is a word to signify our emotional engines. It's a necessary partner to reason. Reason should be the captain at the helm, while faith is the motive power. Without the former, we run off course and eventually end up on the rocks; and without the motivation of faith, we're dead in the water ending with the same fate.

Faith that denies the use of reason is blind faith.

Most faith, as the various supernatural, revealed religions use the term, is blind faith since the only basis for belief is the ancient hearsay of fallible, often corrupt, men. Most claims to having received the word of God directly from God can be dismissed as self-serving inventions or lies. Some may honestly believe they have talked to God, but they can offer no reason anyone else can believe them, or further, can claim knowledge that their witness isn't a form of hallucination.

I think that there are only two possible, reasonable (reasoned), positions on the existence of God: agnostic atheism, and agnostic deism, where agnostic means lack of certainty. From our perspective in this universe, there's no difference between the two--except hope. In either case there is no true, non-hearsay evidence for or against God. Both mandate the use of reason in this imminently reasonable, rational universe. But mankind has spent most of its existence being led away from reason by a few demagogues amongst us.

Faith means to trust. A lot of us trust in things without reason. For example, the first person to bungie jump and test if it works trusted/put faith his rope wont snap. His reasoning doesnt change the fact it may or may not snap.

Reason is not cetainty.

So he put faith in what he did, jumped, survived. People have been jumping ever since.

Faith in supernatural is exactly the same.

We dont have certainty supernatural exist (we cant use facts), we do have reasoning (based on experience and observation). People use different methods of reasoning to find truth in their religion and thus reason to trust it.

Their certainty is based on reasoning.

That does not mean what they have faith in are facts.

Maybe reason is not the correct word.

 

[Revoltingest]

In the context of religion, "faith" & "blind faith" are the same thing.
The word "blind" is just an intensifier to emphasize that aspect of faith.

 

[George-ananda]

Well, I'm one for reason over faith (not the intuitive type myself) and I believe in many things classified as paranormal and the teachings of innumerable eastern masters. I believe phenomena not explainable by the materialist model exist beyond reasonable doubt. My reasoning has concluded (after objectively studying these things) that non-dual Hinduism provides the most reasonable understanding. So I use the term 'belief' and not 'faith' for my spiritual position.

The argument I want to make is that if one adopts 'reason' as his basis, he does not need to be a perfectly neutral agnostic on everything. He will adopt the position 'most reasonable' and then just call it the 'most reasonable position I heard'. I know there is no satisfactory proof for all but after investigation I am beyond reasonable doubt personally.

 

[LuisDantas]

In the context of religion, "faith" & "blind faith" are the same thing.
The word "blind" is just an intensifier to emphasize that aspect of faith.

That is not always, consistently true.

 

[Revoltingest]

That is not always, consistently true.

Counter-example?

 

[Skwim]

Faith is a word to signify our emotional engines.

Gotta disagree. Faith is trust in a belief. Nothing more nothing less. Whether or not emotion is involved would, I suppose, depend on the nature of the faith. I have faith that the car coming up to the intersection will recognize my right to enter first and won't T-bone me, as I proceed. No emotion involved whatsoever. .

It's a necessary partner to reason.

Whaaa? Here's reason, in a formal logical form.

All M are P
No P are S
_________
No S are M​

No faith necessary. Here's another. "I hate all arugula. I will hate this arugula." No faith necessary in either one.

Reason should be the captain at the helm, while faith is the motive power. Without the former, we run off course and eventually end up on the rocks; and without the motivation of faith, we're dead in the water ending with the same fate.

Not at all.

Faith that denies the use of reason is blind faith. Most faith, as the various supernatural, revealed religions use the term, is blind faith since the only basis for belief is the ancient hearsay of fallible, often corrupt, men.

But this still amounts to a reason. You may not find it good, but that doesn't mean it isn't a reason. And I think that you'll find that all faith has some kind of reason behind it---can't think of any that doesn't---so your "blind faith," faith without reason, would be a fallacious concept.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

No, faith in the religious sense is a bad thing. The other definition of faith, which is another word for trust, is a good thing, but the "believe in something without evidence" definition is not good and is counter to reason.

Faith is another word for believing something is likely true due to the evidence which has been subjected to reason. Columbus figured out the world was round so he invested his emotional energy in pursuing it. Turned out he was right, but his scale was all wrong, which could have meant disaster. In this case, he lucked out on his "investment".

More than one can be given:
For examples:
""The ears of the owl are not only in line with an overall complicated design but they also stand out among all animal ears. The right and left outer ears in an owl are directed slightly differently in bearing to each other.This difference in their orientation is so well-measured and precisely designed as to serve a specific purpose. The slightest random variation in this intricate design could have rendered them useless. The sounds they emit to the internal ear are transmitted to the brain which deciphers them perfectly despite their complexity. The whole system is so unique and precise in its intricacies as enables the owl to hunt for its prey in absolute darkness without ever making a mistake.

Intrigued by this uncanny ability of the owl, the scientific community of the world has performed the fantastic task of exactly defining the owl's hearing system with the most sophisticated electronic devices. To our knowledge the greatest work on this was carried out by Masakazu Konishi, Bing Professor of Behavioural Biology at the California Institute of Technology and his colleagues. Their work was published inScientific American, April 1993. 4 Although we bank largely on this article for the following information our brief description does not do justice to the great intricate work. Anyone interested in more scientific and mathematical data would be amply rewarded by reading that great scholarly thesis.""

More @ https://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_5_section_12.html

The world is full of "intelligent" evolution where intelligent means something appears miraculous after much trial and error..

Faith means to trust. A lot of us trust in things without reason. For example, the first person to bungie jump and test if it works trusted/put faith his rope wont snap. His reasoning doesnt change the fact it may or may not snap.

Like the Columbus example above, reasoned faith is usually short of proof when somebody tests it. If I was going to jump, I'd damn sure test the length and the strength of the rope with a bag of my weight first.

Reason is not cetainty,

It is if it's proven. If it isn't, then judgement and experiment are used taking into account the completeness of the evidence.

So he put faith in what he did, jumped, survived. People have been jumping ever since.

Faith in supernatural is exactly the same.

Absolutely not. There is no evidence whatever for the supernatural or divine revelation, beyond hearsay. One can't even be sure a personal supernatural incident isn't something one ate, or hoped for too much, or is just a mental aberration.

We dont have certainty supernatural exist (we cant use facts), we do have reasoning (based on experience and observation).

None that I know of that are almost certainly one of the above.

People use different methods of reasoning to find truth in their religion and thus reason to trust it.

Their certainty is based on reasoning.

That does not mean what they have faith in are facts.

Maybe reason is not the correct word.[/QUOTE]

It may not be the correct word but it's what's required. The problem is, the concept of Truth has been so bastardized and demagogued, we need to start all over again with the concept so that whatever Truth is applied is rationally verifiable.

In the context of religion, "faith" & "blind faith" are the same thing.
The word "blind" is just an intensifier to emphasize that aspect of faith.

No, faith as an emotional stand is very much needed, or there is no reason for the pursuit of Truth/reason/evidence. Blind faith means no evidence to support taking a given path.

Well, I'm one for reason over faith (not the intuitive type myself) and I believe in many things classified as paranormal and the teachings of innumerable eastern masters. I believe phenomena not explainable by the materialist model exist beyond reasonable doubt. My reasoning has concluded (after objectively studying these things) that non-dual Hinduism provides the most reasonable understanding. So I use the term 'belief' and not 'faith' for my spiritual position.

You lost me. And what phenomena not explainable by the materialist model exists at all, much less beyond reasonable doubt

Gotta disagree. Faith is trust in a belief.

Based on evidence beyond hearsay.

Whether or not emotion is involved would, I suppose, depend on the nature of the faith. I have faith that the car coming up to the intersection will recognize my right to enter first and won't T-bone me, as I proceed. No emotion involved whatsoever. .

That's merely faith that most people are law-abiding and don't want to die in a crash. If he's coming too fast, I'd be surprised if you heart didn't signal the adrenal glad to put out quick.

No faith necessary. Here's another. "I hate all arugula. I will hate this arugula." No faith necessary in either one.

Not at all.

No, but what about something that looks like arugula?

But this still amounts to a reason. You may not find it good, but that doesn't mean it isn't a reason.

Because what you're talking about is individual, subjective Truth, which is completely up to you. Gravity is not.

And I think that you'll find that all faith has some kind of reason behind it---can't think of any that doesn't---so your "blind faith," faith without reason, would be a fallacious concept.

The only reason behind blind faith in a religion is hearsay. Show me an example otherwise.