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Faith Schools

Dan Mellis

Thorsredballs
If you own a business that seeks custom from the public you cannot discriminate in any way against certain members of the population, unless that non discrimination convention clashes with your rights, religion being one.

However, discrimination occurs all the time. I am discriminated against if I enter a restaurant without a shirt. Some restaurants require ties, and they won´t let me in without one.,

I was discriminated against in college, I couldn´t play in the big leagues after graduation, my skills were just not that good.

There is a fundamental right called the freedom of association. We all can associate with whomever we choose. A church has this right. It determines the criteria for membership, and in a true Christian church, practicing homosexuals cannot be members. I once knew a homosexual who was a member, but he
chose to remain celibate.

In the final analysis, your argument isn´t with me, or the Church, it is with God. Since you don´t believe in his standards, you want everyone to do what you want in certain areaś of their life.

Thank God for those Theists and Christians who wrote the Constitution, your rights are protected, as are mine, exactly as it should be.

I'm not sure on your law, but in the UK we have a set of protected characteristics (gender, orientation, religion etc) which are protected by law against direct and indirect discrimination. You can discriminate against someone who hasn't got a shirt on... but then again thats a choice and hardly an equivelance. Same thing with level of skill. You can train hard and get better. These aren't examples of discrimination.

Please dont suggest you can train yourself out of homosexuality or that forcing celibacy onto someone so that they can fit into the community they grew up in and/or be accepted by their family is in any way an OK thing to do - thats not offering a real choice at all.

Freedom of religion ends when it infringes on others rights. Your bible tells you to stone disobedient kids and have fences around your roof. Am I taking it that you have been following those as strictly as you have the "avoid the gays" thing? Because otherwise you're not doing it right.

And what about the freedom of association for homosexuals? Or are you saying your rights are more important?

No, my argument is with the church; I have no reason to believe that there is a god for me to argue with. Even if there were - its your church's actions which I have a problem with.

Theres an argument that several of the founders were atheist to some degree, but that's immaterial. Certainly, your constitution is. Are you admitting that the reason that the constitution is good is because it's not very religious? Because that seems like a point I'd make.

For argument's sake, I'll concede that the authors were devout christians. You're saying they wrote a great constitution, despite their religion...
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
The establishment clause of the First Amendment of The Constitution, along with the Treaty of Tripoli.
The establishment clause simply says that there will be no established state religion. That doesn´t make the country a secular nation.

Goodness, the Supreme court has
a frieze of Moses outside and the ten commandments displayed inside. Congress opens with a prayer and has a chaplain, the military has chaplains.

There are thousands of churches, synagogues, and mosques across the country, hundreds of religious schools, and many universities that identify as Christian

I could go on, but you get the point, a truly secular nation would have none of these things, nor would it have a population that says 80% of itself are Christians.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure on your law, but in the UK we have a set of protected characteristics (gender, orientation, religion etc) which are protected by law against direct and indirect discrimination. You can discriminate against someone who hasn't got a shirt on... but then again thats a choice and hardly an equivelance. Same thing with level of skill. You can train hard and get better. These aren't examples of discrimination.

Please dont suggest you can train yourself out of homosexuality or that forcing celibacy onto someone so that they can fit into the community they grew up in and/or be accepted by their family is in any way an OK thing to do - thats not offering a real choice at all.

Freedom of religion ends when it infringes on others rights. Your bible tells you to stone disobedient kids and have fences around your roof. Am I taking it that you have been following those as strictly as you have the "avoid the gays" thing? Because otherwise you're not doing it right.

And what about the freedom of association for homosexuals? Or are you saying your rights are more important?

No, my argument is with the church; I have no reason to believe that there is a god for me to argue with. Even if there were - its your church's actions which I have a problem with.

Theres an argument that several of the founders were atheist to some degree, but that's immaterial. Certainly, your constitution is. Are you admitting that the reason that the constitution is good is because it's not very religious? Because that seems like a point I'd make.

For argument's sake, I'll concede that the authors were devout christians. You're saying they wrote a great constitution, despite their religion...
You obviously don´t understand our constitution. Further, you obviously don´t understand the difference between the old testament, where your attempt at quotation lies, and the Christian dispensation.

So, you apparently feel we require a law that compels churches to allow homosexuals to become members, regardless of Biblical teaching and 2,000 years of practice.

So then, you have decided what my religion should be and teach.

What gives you that power, your sense of right and wrong ?

In America it doesn´t work that way, mob rule or government permeating every part of society isn´t here, yet.

Religious rights are completely protected by the Constitution.

Our Constitution isn´t atheist, and I suggest you read the precursor document, the Declaration of Independence to get a true view of the Founders and religion.

The very first right enumerated in the first amendment to the Constitution provides for the free exercise of religion.

How far shall we go with this ?

Should a neighborhood poker game be required to invite homosexuals ?

Should the black panthers be required to admit white members or the KKK to admit black members ?

What about the idea that I can pick my friends, or I can associate with whomever I choose ? Obviously those whom I select to associate with have the right to not associate with me.

Homosexuals exercise the right of association. In my working life I was a LEO, and I can tell you there are homosexual bars and clubs that are extremely hostile to straights who wander in, so hostile that fights occur.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
The establishment clause simply says that there will be no established state religion. That doesn´t make the country a secular nation.

Goodness, the Supreme court has
a frieze of Moses outside and the ten commandments displayed inside. Congress opens with a prayer and has a chaplain, the military has chaplains.

There are thousands of churches, synagogues, and mosques across the country, hundreds of religious schools, and many universities that identify as Christian

I could go on, but you get the point, a truly secular nation would have none of these things, nor would it have a population that says 80% of itself are Christians.

Wrong: Secular state - Wikipedia
 

Dan Mellis

Thorsredballs
You obviously don´t understand our constitution. Further, you obviously don´t understand the difference between the old testament, where your attempt at quotation lies, and the Christian dispensation.

So, you apparently feel we require a law that compels churches to allow homosexuals to become members, regardless of Biblical teaching and 2,000 years of practice.

So then, you have decided what my religion should be and teach.

What gives you that power, your sense of right and wrong ?

In America it doesn´t work that way, mob rule or government permeating every part of society isn´t here, yet.

Religious rights are completely protected by the Constitution.

Our Constitution isn´t atheist, and I suggest you read the precursor document, the Declaration of Independence to get a true view of the Founders and religion.

The very first right enumerated in the first amendment to the Constitution provides for the free exercise of religion.

How far shall we go with this ?

Should a neighborhood poker game be required to invite homosexuals ?

Should the black panthers be required to admit white members or the KKK to admit black members ?

What about the idea that I can pick my friends, or I can associate with whomever I choose ? Obviously those whom I select to associate with have the right to not associate with me.

Homosexuals exercise the right of association. In my working life I was a LEO, and I can tell you there are homosexual bars and clubs that are extremely hostile to straights who wander in, so hostile that fights occur.

Please esplain the difference between one part of the old testament and the others. Because in Leviticus 18 and 20, it's not only an 'abomination' to be gay, but they should be put to death. This sentiment is echoed, although softened, in the new testament. Is your belief that you can cherry pick out of the bible? If so, who decides what and why you can do so? My quotation (citation really) wasn't a lie in the slightest. It was a direct reference to something that your bible actually says. If you reject it as a Christian, why is it in your book?

I probably don't understand your constitution, but by 'atheist' I simply meant that there is no functional mention of god. Irs secular quality is what you were referring to in your earlier comment.

Youre damn right I have some views on what your religion *shouldn't* teach! It would be fine if it didn't exclude specific members who rely on that community for a sense of self worth. If they are honest with themselves and their family, they lose everything. Again, that's not the same as picking your friends or not going into a gay bar - open hostility to a straight guy in a gay bar isn't acceptable... but didn't anyone tell you that two wrongs don't make a right?

The black panthers shouldn't be forced to accept racists. Because white racist members would actively infringe on their rights through conscious choices that are avoidable and immoral. Churches should accept gays, because being gay is neither a choice nor is it immoral. Who someone decides to sleep with has no effect on anyone they associate with. If they went into a church to pray with the congregation, the rest of the congregation isn't gonna catch the gay.

You're trying to justify homophobia with 'freedom of association' and although it's your personal right not to associate with someone, please don't pretend its anything except homophobia.
 
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oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Hi. First post here (hooray for me).

I have a bee in my bonnet about this.

In the UK, we have government - funded chos which are allowed to select a proportion of their pupils purely on the basis of their faith.

In their studies, they are allowed (and do) teach things like "homosexuality isnt a sin, but practicing it is," and "women on their period should be avoided."

We don't have a seperation of church and state here - in fact, we have 26 seats reserved for bishops to vote in our parliament. But, because we're a largely irreligious country, theres a certain amount of apathy surrounding these matters. Nobody takes either church or state seriously - so its hard to make any sort of change.

What are your views on the faith school system? Are there similar systems in the US and Europe?

Hi Dan.
I live in Kent, UK.
The Education authority here is tightening up on the system.

1. All 'special schools' and 'home-educated kids' and 'religious-schools' etc now have to register themselves, thus coming on to the radar for scrutiny and examination.

2. All religious schools are now required to offer a number of places to 'other children', and the little Buddhist girl who lives over the road from us now goes to the big Catholic school in Canterbury on one of these places.

3. All schools are now required to stick to the national curriculum and lesson-plans, and where they are estranging themselves from these, so funding can be withdrawn, which can cause closure if they don't fall in line.

4. Inhumane practices in some schools are now being prosecuted, One school culture used to truss children up a bit like a chicken if they could not remember long religious tracts. It's time to get off our bottoms about this kind of thing, but we are responding now, I hear.

5. Schools that try to hide under the radar are now being searched for.

The trouble is, imo, education authorities have been more interested in their pay checks than in any duties (imo) but now public opinion may actually start moving things along.

I do not know the office which handles reports of contrary schooling, but the internet would tell me in about ten seconds, I reckon. Should we research that and post it up here for all to see and use?

I'll go have a look round.... :)
 

Dan Mellis

Thorsredballs
You obviously don´t understand our constitution. Further, you obviously don´t understand the difference between the old testament, where your attempt at quotation lies, and the Christian dispensation.

So, you apparently feel we require a law that compels churches to allow homosexuals to become members, regardless of Biblical teaching and 2,000 years of practice.

So then, you have decided what my religion should be and teach.

What gives you that power, your sense of right and wrong ?

In America it doesn´t work that way, mob rule or government permeating every part of society isn´t here, yet.

Religious rights are completely protected by the Constitution.

Our Constitution isn´t atheist, and I suggest you read the precursor document, the Declaration of Independence to get a true view of the Founders and religion.

The very first right enumerated in the first amendment to the Constitution provides for the free exercise of religion.

How far shall we go with this ?

Should a neighborhood poker game be required to invite homosexuals ?

Should the black panthers be required to admit white members or the KKK to admit black members ?

What about the idea that I can pick my friends, or I can associate with whomever I choose ? Obviously those whom I select to associate with have the right to not associate with me.

Homosexuals exercise the right of association. In my working life I was a LEO, and I can tell you there are homosexual bars and clubs that are extremely hostile to straights who wander in, so hostile that fights occur.

Also, I don't think any law should be passed contravening your freedom of association. However, just begause something is legally permissible doesn't speak for its morality.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
@Dan Mellis

Hi Dan..... again....

Yeah, this is who to shout at if your problem is in England.

The Department for Education is a department of Her Majesty's Government responsible for child protection, education, apprenticeships and wider skills in England.
Officeholder: Damian Hinds (Secretary of State)
Founded: 2010 Jurisdiction: England
Annual budget: 58.2 billion GBP (2015–2016)
https://www.gov.uk/government/.../department-for-education/.../complaints-procedure
‎How to make a complaint ... · ‎How we treat your complaints · ‎Complain about local ...
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Please esplain the difference between one part of the old testament and the others. Because in Leviticus 18 and 20, it's not only an 'abomination' to be gay, but they should be put to death.
The above was sent to another member.

In the UK teaching this kind of anti-gay junk is banned as well as a criminal offence. Our Equality Act 2010 absolutely classes this primitive stuff as criminal.

The stupid thing is that the Christian extremists who chant anti-gay muck cannot quote Jesus to support such claims. And when they quote the O.T. laws they then ignore about 500 other OT laws ...... they cherry picked this stuff.

Any teacher who fills kids with anti-LGBT in the UK, can be prosecuted.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
No you haven't been disingenuous. I didn't mean it personally. I mean the agenda in general pushed by liberals against Christian schools seems disingenuous.
Hi...

In the UK we are cracking down on schools who do not support the standard curriculum.

Our government here is Conservative.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I think that unless it is a privately funded religious school it should be secular in nature. Any govt. funded school should be strictly secular. Over here in the US, this falls under separation of church and state.

In the UK, even private schools are required to deliver the standard lesson plans to all children.

That includes 'teach at home' kids and private schools.

In the past some private schools have been so removed from the standard curriculum that children have grown up estranged and unsocialised with all around them. They then complain that folks don't empathise with them. :)

We're trying to sort that out now.
 

Dan Mellis

Thorsredballs
Hi Dan.
I live in Kent, UK.
The Education authority here is tightening up on the system.

1. All 'special schools' and 'home-educated kids' and 'religious-schools' etc now have to register themselves, thus coming on to the radar for scrutiny and examination.

2. All religious schools are now required to offer a number of places to 'other children', and the little Buddhist girl who lives over the road from us now goes to the big Catholic school in Canterbury on one of these places.

3. All schools are now required to stick to the national curriculum and lesson-plans, and where they are estranging themselves from these, so funding can be withdrawn, which can cause closure if they don't fall in line.

4. Inhumane practices in some schools are now being prosecuted, One school culture used to truss children up a bit like a chicken if they could not remember long religious tracts. It's time to get off our bottoms about this kind of thing, but we are responding now, I hear.

5. Schools that try to hide under the radar are now being searched for.

The trouble is, imo, education authorities have been more interested in their pay checks than in any duties (imo) but now public opinion may actually start moving things along.

I do not know the office which handles reports of contrary schooling, but the internet would tell me in about ten seconds, I reckon. Should we research that and post it up here for all to see and use?

I'll go have a look round.... :)


Cool! The only thing is with point 2. They shouldn't be discriminatory at all - my problem isnt necessarily with how faith schools teach, but the fact that they give preferential admissions to people of a certain faith.
 

Dan Mellis

Thorsredballs
The above was sent to another member.

In the UK teaching this kind of anti-gay junk is banned as well as a criminal offence. Our Equality Act 2010 absolutely classes this primitive stuff as criminal.

The stupid thing is that the Christian extremists who chant anti-gay muck cannot quote Jesus to support such claims. And when they quote the O.T. laws they then ignore about 500 other OT laws ...... they cherry picked this stuff.

Any teacher who fills kids with anti-LGBT in the UK, can be prosecuted.

I'm not sure if you've seen the National Secular Societies' 'No More Faith Schools' campaign and associated literature?

You'd be forgiven for thinking that the equality act is applied equally. However, faith schools are allowed to teach in accordance with their faith as long as they aren't insighting hatred. For example - most catholic schools teach that (I'm paraphrasing here but its there for all to see in their policies) homosexuality in and of itself isn't sinful. The bible only says that committing homosexual acts is sinful - so you can be gay, as long as you avoid actually being gay.

They teach these kids that they have to maintain lifelong celibacy if theyre gay, or go to hell. This is harmful enough but, even worse, it opens the door for unethical theraputic treatments such as gay conversion therapy.

All of this is happening in most faith schools, despite the Equality Act. And instead of cracking down on the issue, the government is opening more of these establishments and trying to allow 100% admissions discrimination (there's a 50% cap, currently).

Here's a link to the NMFS page...

No More Faith Schools

and a link to the article which contains a link to the a report which summarises this stuff...

Most faith schools distorting sex education, NSS study finds

The problem I have in this country is because nobody really cares about the church, they can fly under the radar and it's difficult to garner any sort of public support for campaigns like the NSS one.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
You simply are wrong

I am simply not.

Karen Pence Is Teaching at Christian School That Bars L.G.B.T. Students and Teachers

To give you just one example. In that school, gay students aren't even allowed. How's that for discrimination...

If you were to actually take the time to read the Bible, you would learn that the only ¨discrimination¨ toward homosexuals mentioned is that they cannot be members of the church.

I don't care what the bible says in your opinion. It's not the subject. The subject is, what happens in faith schools. And in quite a few faith schools, there most definatly is discrimination and even hate speech towards gays. Or even just only people of other faiths - or no faiths.

Kids are taught in parochial school that we all are sinners, and no sin is worse than another.

Horrible, isn't it?
Not that this matters to the actual points being discussed off course.

However, they are taught that repentance , the free exercise of choice, is the critical factor. Every person has the right to choose what they want to do with their life. No one is ever forced to become a Christian, they choose The Way, and make the sacrifices that choice entails, or they don´t.

Meanwhile, none of this is addressing the points that are actually being talked about.

Hmmmm, distrust of science. What does that mean ?

It means what it means. Like adding the word "godless" in front of the word "scientist". Or by referring to biologists as "darwinists" or better yet "godless darwinists".

When we are talking about schools that teach biblical creationism, they necessarily have to include distrust of science in some way or form, since they need to "teach" those kids that more then half of scientific theories are just wrong. Pretty much most of what is dealing with biology, genetics, geology, physics, chemistry,... has to be wrong for biblical creationism to be right.

Are you now also going to deny that there are "faith shools" in the US that actively do this?

Isn´t it part of the scientific method to test scientific theory, to look at it critically ?

Sure. But high school students aren't scientists. Scientists develop theories using the scientific method. Students in high school then learn about the findings of those scientists. High school students are not in a position to properly evaluate accuracy of scientific theories. That's for when they graduate at a university in those specific fields and perhaps get a phd or so.

That doesn't mean they can't ask questions. That just means that they lack the expertise to evaluate such theories. That's in fact why they are in school: to gain such expertise.

The idea that advanced scientific theories are to be evaluated and "critically looked" at in a high school class room, is simply beyond banana's.....

Science isn´t the Delphic oracle, from whom the ancient Greeks believed all truth about the future came.

Science is demonstrably the best method currently at our disposal to get accurate answers to questions about reality and the nature of reality.

40 years or so ago Time magazine had a cover with an article description on ¨"how to survive the coming ice age¨ based upon scientific thought at the time.

So?
I don't know what you are talking about, but I'll run with it.
So, do scientists still believe this? NO? So they don't publish it any more? Right.
See, that's the thing about science.... it deals with the information at out disposal and goes for the best explanation. If tomorrow a better explanation surfaces, then it will replace the old explanations.

Meanwhile, religions like christianity pretty much still claims the same thing as 2000 years ago, no matter how many times it already has been refuted, shown inconsistent, etc...

At best, it "reinterpretes" passages - but only after science demonstrate how the previous interpretation was banana's. And usually a couple decades after, because religious authorities usually have to be dragged along while kicking and screaming.

There is nothing wrong with a healthy skepticism about science.

But there is much wrong with dogmatic rejections because bronze age myths are favoured.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
ALL schools must meet the same standards. ALL schools are audited, reviewed and accredited. Failure to meet the standards results in the loss of accreditation, and will eventually close the school.

I see.
Off course, when the guidelines themselves are worthless, we'll get nowhere...

Republicans considering law to allow Creationism to be taught as a scientific theory

What makes you think the US is a secular country ?

Its constitution.

There is no state religion like many countries have, like Britain. However, there is no law against anyone freely practicing their religion,

Secularism, doesn't mean that religion is forbidden. :rolleyes:
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
However, discrimination occurs all the time. I am discriminated against if I enter a restaurant without a shirt. Some restaurants require ties, and they won´t let me in without one.,

That's called a dress code and it has nothing to do with discrimination.... :rolleyes:

Or do you honestly not see the difference between:
1. not allowing a man without a tie in a restaurant
2. not allowing a black man in a restaurant

I was discriminated against in college, I couldn´t play in the big leagues after graduation, my skills were just not that good.

ow boy

When 2 people apply for a job and one is better qualified and hired, then this isn't discrimination against the other.

If 2 people apply for a job and the lesser qualified is hired because the other one is gay, then that is discrimination.

:rolleyes:

There is a fundamental right called the freedom of association. We all can associate with whomever we choose. A church has this right. It determines the criteria for membership, and in a true Christian church, practicing homosexuals cannot be members. I once knew a homosexual who was a member, but he
chose to remain celibate.

All this is irrelevant to what the actual topic being discussed. That topic being: what happens (and not) in faith schools.

In the final analysis, your argument isn´t with me, or the Church, it is with God.

No. It is with schools in our society that teach and prep a generation of kids that will become working members of the same society that we all live in.


Since you don´t believe in his standards, you want everyone to do what you want in certain areaś of their life.

No.
I want fellow citizens to live according to the standards of the society that we share.
And that is a secular society with respect for human rights where things like humanity, solidarity etc are cherished values.

Thank God for those Theists and Christians who wrote the Constitution, your rights are protected, as are mine, exactly as it should be.
Most of them didn't have the religious beliefs that you seem to think they had

The Faiths of the Founding Fathers - Wikipedia
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
The method is fine, some of the results of using the method are very questionable.

Such as?
And how have you determined them as being "questionable"?
On what basis do you claim this?

During the gas crisis of the early 70ś we were bombarded by scientists telling us that the oil supply would be totally depleted in ten years. That was 50 years ago.

Are you sure you were bombarded by scientific peer reviewed papers and not just commercial media that took some quotes of scientists, left out all of the scientific qualifiers of a few statements, and then re-assembled it all in a sensationalist headline - the old version of "click bait"?

I mean, it's not like we don't have any precedents of such................

Somehow, I doubt that in the 70s scientific papers were published so publicly that laymen were "bombarded" with them.......... :rolleyes:

Science has made mistakes, a plethora of them.

Obviously. Well... "science" hasn't. Scientists have.
In the end, whenever you learn something new, you are also realising that what you thought before learning that, was actually wrong.

That's how progress is made: getting it wrong and then realising it.
Nearly every time a new theory surfaces, it will be replacing a theory that came before it.

This is a good thing. It means learning.

I don reject science, I simply know that they and what they do isn´t perfect and nor are they.

Nobody says otherwise.
What is being said, is that the science method, is the demonstrably the best method we have to get accurate answers to questions about reality.

Just "the best" method.
Not a perfect method.
Not a flawless method.
Not an unquestionable method.

Just the best method.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
The establishment clause simply says that there will be no established state religion. That doesn´t make the country a secular nation.

Sounds like need to look up what "secular" means.

There are thousands of churches, synagogues, and mosques across the country, hundreds of religious schools, and many universities that identify as Christian

I could go on, but you get the point, a truly secular nation would have none of these things, nor would it have a population that says 80% of itself are Christians.

Yep, I was right... you indeed do need to look up what "secular" means.
Sounds like you think that in a secular country, all religion is outlawed or something....
 

Dan Mellis

Thorsredballs
You simply are wrong. If you were to actually take the time to read the Bible, you would learn that the only ¨discrimination¨ toward homosexuals mentioned is that they cannot be members of the church.

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."

Seems like you don't know your bible...

And don't give me that crap about interpreting it out of context. That is a word for word quote and there is simply no context in which it could mean anything else than what it says, which is that gay people should be put to death.
 
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