Faith Schools

[Dan Mellis]

No you haven't been disingenuous. I didn't mean it personally. I mean the agenda in general pushed by liberals against Christian schools seems disingenuous.

I can understand that point, although not entirely with the 'liberals' generalisation. Any real campaign against these schools would have to be inclusive of all faith schools to go anywhere. Anything else is just a rant and no action can really happen off the back of it.

 

[Dan Mellis]

In addition to what has been said about the US separation of church and state, we have public schools and private schools. Twelve years of education is required for every citizen, and they may get that either through public or privately funded schools. We also allow privately funded home schooling to fill the requirement.

One thing that helps retain separation between church and state: A tax exempt institution may not endorse political candidates and still retain its tax-exempt status. Any such place will be considered taxable by the IRS.

Private schools tend to be small, and that makes it hard for many children to learn good social skills. A student may transfer between schools, as I transferred from a private to a public school and back. I also did some home schooling. Children are in school for many hours per day, so they need good socialization in school. I suggest religious schools aren't so bad if they just have enough size to help students socialize properly, but usually they are small. Very often they are associated with an individual church and have only a few hundred students. That is bad for children in my opinion.

Some states have experimented with school vouchers that allow parents to use public funding for private schooling. Others have experimented with vouchers that are for public schools only. I'm not perfectly happy about private schools teaching creationism, so I am not perfectly happy about public funds going to support private schools. I am adamant that it is not Ok to teach creationism as if it were science. Its dishonest and sets students back, but many private schools do this. Church schools in particular may demonize subjects like Psychology, Art, Astronomy etc. Understandably its impossible to give them publicly funded vouchers, since they are un-educating students in this way.

Currently public schools do not have to compete against each other, except for some newly introduced national standardized testing. The standardized testing is used to allocate funding. This arrangement is not working well, but the standardized testing is revealing the weakness of the current school system.

Private academies do this right: school uniforms. Why don't public schools require this? Its ridiculous not to require uniforms. Private academies do this wrong: skirts. What are they thinking? No skirts. Everybody should wear full body suits that are easy to get on and an optional jacket.

I agreed with most of this right up until that last paragraph - whats wrong with skirts? Also, all schools in the UK have uniforms. It doesn't really affect behaviour. They're much more expensive than other kids clothes so it usually just makes the poorer kids look much poorer than they would in some cheaper clothes (we have a shop called primark which is ideal. Decent clothes, ridiculously cheap).

 

[Brickjectivity]

I agreed with most of this right up until that last paragraph - whats wrong with skirts? Also, all schools in the UK have uniforms. It doesn't really affect behaviour. They're much more expensive than other kids clothes so it usually just makes the poorer kids look much poorer than they would in some cheaper clothes (we have a shop called primark which is ideal. Decent clothes, ridiculously cheap).

That is a good point about the cost.

 

[Altfish]

Hi. First post here (hooray for me).

I have a bee in my bonnet about this.

In the UK, we have government - funded chos which are allowed to select a proportion of their pupils purely on the basis of their faith.

In their studies, they are allowed (and do) teach things like "homosexuality isnt a sin, but practicing it is," and "women on their period should be avoided."

We don't have a separation of church and state here - in fact, we have 26 seats reserved for bishops to vote in our parliament. But, because we're a largely irreligious country, theres a certain amount of apathy surrounding these matters. Nobody takes either church or state seriously - so its hard to make any sort of change.

What are your views on the faith school system? Are there similar systems in the US and Europe?

Religious schools should be de-funded immediately.- they should not get a penny of UK's tax payers money unless they stick to the national curriculum and equally welcome all children irrespective of their faith or no faith.

 

[Dan Mellis]

Religious schools should be de-funded immediately.- they should not get a penny of UK's tax payers money unless they stick to the national curriculum and equally welcome all children irrespective of their faith or no faith.

I agree - especially when their curriculum spouts hate and discrimination.

 

[ChristineM]

Hi. First post here (hooray for me).

I have a bee in my bonnet about this.

In the UK, we have government - funded chos which are allowed to select a proportion of their pupils purely on the basis of their faith.

In their studies, they are allowed (and do) teach things like "homosexuality isnt a sin, but practicing it is," and "women on their period should be avoided."

We don't have a seperation of church and state here - in fact, we have 26 seats reserved for bishops to vote in our parliament. But, because we're a largely irreligious country, theres a certain amount of apathy surrounding these matters. Nobody takes either church or state seriously - so its hard to make any sort of change.

What are your views on the faith school system? Are there similar systems in the US and Europe?

Hi Dan, welcome to RF. Sit back and enjoy the ride, and the bacon. I understand the staff also provide cakes to new members but that may only be a rumour.

 

[shmogie]

To be honest: this is only true on paper. And not paper money, because on there you have the words "in god we trust".



Except in a way, they really really do. You call them politicians.
American politicians bring more theology into politics then the 26 bisshops in UK government.

Try building a political carreer in the US while openly stating that you are an atheist...



But are they required to uphold a certain curriculum?
Are there any binding guidelines on what things a school should cover?

Please, does paper money commit a minor aggression against your atheism ?

Are you advocating a non religious test for politicians ? Perhaps a panel of atheists to ensure they aren´t practicing their right to freedom of religion ?

What does your observation tell you about having a political career as an atheist ?

People have a right to vote for whomever they choose, if they don´t choose atheists, so what ?

Yes, church schools have general curriculum guidelines, i.e. math, science history, etc.

 

[shmogie]

I agree - especially when their curriculum spouts hate and discrimination.

No Christian religious schools advocates hate or discrimination. You equate not agreeing with you, or the body politic as hate, which is utter nonsense

 

[Dan Mellis]

No Christian religious schools advocates hate or discrimination. You equate not agreeing with you, or the body politic as hate, which is utter nonsense

You're just wrong - at least in the UK. They literally teach that homosexuality is sinful. Muslim and Jewish schools are just as bad and worse in some cases.

And yes, I do disagree with that but I think you'll find that doesn't make me a totalitarian, just a reasonable human being. Something that church organisations (not thd individual attendees) seem to often be lacking. Maybe I should join?

 

[Dan Mellis]

Please, does paper money commit a minor aggression against your atheism ?

Are you advocating a non religious test for politicians ? Perhaps a panel of atheists to ensure they aren´t practicing their right to freedom of religion ?

What does your observation tell you about having a political career as an atheist ?

People have a right to vote for whomever they choose, if they don´t choose atheists, so what ?

Yes, church schools have general curriculum guidelines, i.e. math, science history, etc.

If paper money said "God doesnt exist" - I'm sure you would take exception. Nobody was advocating atheism tests for polititians - but when it is functionally impossible to have a successful career in American politics and not be atheist, theres a problem. You have it the wrong way round. I think people would like to see the abolishment of unofficial religious requirements for polititians.

 

[Fool]

Hi. First post here (hooray for me).

I have a bee in my bonnet about this.

In the UK, we have government - funded chos which are allowed to select a proportion of their pupils purely on the basis of their faith.

In their studies, they are allowed (and do) teach things like "homosexuality isnt a sin, but practicing it is," and "women on their period should be avoided."

We don't have a seperation of church and state here - in fact, we have 26 seats reserved for bishops to vote in our parliament. But, because we're a largely irreligious country, theres a certain amount of apathy surrounding these matters. Nobody takes either church or state seriously - so its hard to make any sort of change.

What are your views on the faith school system? Are there similar systems in the US and Europe?

welcome to RF. it would be better that schools offered spiritual, mental guidance from professionally trained people in counseling, psychology, vs limiting students to a uniform. forms when wolves can come in sheeps clothing.


prettry is as pretty does.

 

[Dan Mellis]

welcome to RF. it would be better that schools offered spiritual, mental guidance from professionally trained people in counseling, psychology, vs limiting students to a uniform. forms when wolves can come in sheeps clothing.


prettry is as pretty does.

Completely agree. Uniform does nothing but offer something to be challenged - the amount kids who lost out on learning because they were sent home to change their shoes in my school is just staggering. They need to give their head a shake.

 

[LuisDantas]

The contrast between the situations is fascinating.

The USA have separation between Church and State on paper, but that does not really earn them a lot of protection from abuses of faith. As one would expect, since legal protections end up empowering those with the cash to pay lawyers to find loopholes and the like.

The UK and much of Europe have actual secularistic, laicity-oriented cultures and are therefore generally much better protected, to the point that several actually legislate religious privilege laws of some form or another, mainly in order to maintain traditional roles that would otherwise die out. In essence, they are grandfathered in.

The significant proviso is that when that attention translates into blasphemy laws and the like there is an actual encouragement of the same (or worse) abuse that plagues the USA and other places.

Ultimately there is IMO a need for actual awareness of the dangers of religious privilege and the conscious decision to deny it any support.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Please, does paper money commit a minor aggression against your atheism ?

No. I'm just saying, it's kind of a strange thing to put on money in a country that supposedly is strongly secular...

Are you advocating a non religious test for politicians ?

I'm advocating not caring at all about religious beliefs of politicians.
And clearly that is not what is happening. This is a fault of the voters primarily off course. But politicians are eager to exploit it, and that is off course on them.

Perhaps a panel of atheists to ensure they aren´t practicing their right to freedom of religion ?

I don't think I said anything about people's rights to practice a religion.
But I get it, you are a butthurt and feel obliged to take it down that route, just so you have something to complain about, instead of actually responding to the points made.

What does your observation tell you about having a political career as an atheist ?

My observations tell me that if in the US you want to have a political carreer as an atheist, then you'ld better lie about your lack of beliefs and pretend to being a christian. Otherwise, you won't be getting anywhere.

People have a right to vote for whomever they choose

Sure.
However as a politician in a secular country, you are required to leave your religious argumentation at the door during debates. Even if 100% of the government consists of christians.

Yes, church schools have general curriculum guidelines, i.e. math, science history, etc.

And are those guidelines enforced somehow or are they just guidelines?
And are these guidelines for ALL schools, or only public schools?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

No Christian religious schools advocates hate or discrimination.

Don't kid yourself.
They advocate hate / discrimination of gay people for example. That doesn't mean that they are teaching kids to literally hate or harm gay people. But they ARE teaching them how sinfull gays are, how they are an "abomination", as the bible says.

In many parts of the US, "christian" shools also advocate distrust of scientists and science in general.

Yes, some "faith schools" actually cause a LOT of harm.

 

[shmogie]

Don't kid yourself.
They advocate hate / discrimination of gay people for example. That doesn't mean that they are teaching kids to literally hate or harm gay people. But they ARE teaching them how sinfull gays are, how they are an "abomination", as the bible says.

In many parts of the US, "christian" shools also advocate distrust of scientists and science in general.

Yes, some "faith schools" actually cause a LOT of harm.

You simply are wrong. If you were to actually take the time to read the Bible, you would learn that the only ¨discrimination¨ toward homosexuals mentioned is that they cannot be members of the church.

Kids are taught in parochial school that we all are sinners, and no sin is worse than another. However, they are taught that repentance , the free exercise of choice, is the critical factor. Every person has the right to choose what they want to do with their life. No one is ever forced to become a Christian, they choose The Way, and make the sacrifices that choice entails, or they don´t.

Hmmmm, distrust of science. What does that mean ? Isn´t it part of the scientific method to test scientific theory, to look at it critically ?

Science isn´t the Delphic oracle, from whom the ancient Greeks believed all truth about the future came.

40 years or so ago Time magazine had a cover with an article description on ¨"how to survive the coming ice age¨ based upon scientific thought at the time.

There is nothing wrong with a healthy skepticism about science.

 

[shmogie]

No. I'm just saying, it's kind of a strange thing to put on money in a country that supposedly is strongly secular...



I'm advocating not caring at all about religious beliefs of politicians.
And clearly that is not what is happening. This is a fault of the voters primarily off course. But politicians are eager to exploit it, and that is off course on them.




I don't think I said anything about people's rights to practice a religion.
But I get it, you are a butthurt and feel obliged to take it down that route, just so you have something to complain about, instead of actually responding to the points made.



My observations tell me that if in the US you want to have a political carreer as an atheist, then you'ld better lie about your lack of beliefs and pretend to being a christian. Otherwise, you won't be getting anywhere.



Sure.
However as a politician in a secular country, you are required to leave your religious argumentation at the door during debates. Even if 100% of the government consists of christians.



And are those guidelines enforced somehow or are they just guidelines?
And are these guidelines for ALL schools, or only public schools?

ALL schools must meet the same standards. ALL schools are audited, reviewed and accredited. Failure to meet the standards results in the loss of accreditation, and will eventually close the school.

What makes you think the US is a secular country ?

There is no state religion like many countries have, like Britain. However, there is no law against anyone freely practicing their religion,

 

[Dan Mellis]

You simply are wrong. If you were to actually take the time to read the Bible, you would learn that the only ¨discrimination¨ toward homosexuals mentioned is that they cannot be members of the church.

Any sort of "discrimination" is discrimination. If I were to ban homosexuals from my shop, or to refuse them employment, that is the same. The only difference would be that I haven't published a book which denounces their moral character.

Kids are taught in parochial school that we all are sinners, and no sin is worse than another. However, they are taught that repentance , the free exercise of choice, is the critical factor. Every person has the right to choose what they want to do with their life. No one is ever forced to become a Christian, they choose The Way, and make the sacrifices that choice entails, or they don´t.

What sort of thing is that to teach kids? "You're born evil. Not to worry! A lifetime of grovelling and fighting impulses given to you by the god we worship, resulting in self-hatred for the rest of your life, should fix that."

Also, you're wrong. When a kid is indocrinated from a young age, they don't have a choice in what they believe.

There is nothing wrong with a healthy skepticism about science.

The scientific process is pretty much the only thing we can't really be sceptical about. Everything that process produces, we should question and retest - but the process itself is the only way we can reach a well-reasoned conclusion about how, whay and when anything works. Distrust of this system leads to movements like the antivax movement and holistic remedies causing hundreds of needless deaths and disabilities from entirely preventible ailments. Interestingly enough, you know what they call alternative medicine that has been proven to work? They call that medicine.

 

[shmogie]

Any sort of "discrimination" is discrimination. If I were to ban homosexuals from my shop, or to refuse them employment, that is the same. The only difference would be that I haven't published a book which denounces their moral character.





What sort of thing is that to teach kids? "You're born evil. Not to worry! A lifetime of grovelling and fighting impulses given to you by the god we worship, resulting in self-hatred for the rest of your life, should fix that."

Also, you're wrong. When a kid is indocrinated from a young age, they don't have a choice in what they believe.




The scientific process is pretty much the only thing we can't really be sceptical about. Everything that process produces, we should question and retest - but the process itself is the only way we can reach a well-reasoned conclusion about how, whay and when anything works. Distrust of this system leads to movements like the antivax movement and holistic remedies causing hundreds of needless deaths and disabilities from entirely preventible ailments. Interestingly enough, you know what they call alternative medicine that has been proven to work? They call that medicine.

If you own a business that seeks custom from the public you cannot discriminate in any way against certain members of the population, unless that non discrimination convention clashes with your rights, religion being one.

However, discrimination occurs all the time. I am discriminated against if I enter a restaurant without a shirt. Some restaurants require ties, and they won´t let me in without one.,

I was discriminated against in college, I couldn´t play in the big leagues after graduation, my skills were just not that good.

There is a fundamental right called the freedom of association. We all can associate with whomever we choose. A church has this right. It determines the criteria for membership, and in a true Christian church, practicing homosexuals cannot be members. I once knew a homosexual who was a member, but he
chose to remain celibate.

In the final analysis, your argument isn´t with me, or the Church, it is with God. Since you don´t believe in his standards, you want everyone to do what you want in certain areaś of their life.

Thank God for those Theists and Christians who wrote the Constitution, your rights are protected, as are mine, exactly as it should be.

 

[shmogie]

The scientific process is pretty much the only thing we can't really be sceptical about. Everything that process produces, we should question and retest - but the process itself is the only way we can reach a well-reasoned conclusion about how, whay and when anything works. Distrust of this system leads to movements like the antivax movement and holistic remedies causing hundreds of needless deaths and disabilities from entirely preventible ailments. Interestingly enough, you know what they call alternative medicine that has been proven to work? They call that medicine.[/QUOTE]
Rh
The method is fine, some of the results of using the method are very questionable.

During the gas crisis of the early 70ś we were bombarded by scientists telling us that the oil supply would be totally depleted in ten years. That was 50 years ago.

Science has made mistakes, a plethora of them. I don reject science, I simply know that they and what they do isn´t perfect and nor are they.