Faith - Fact

[Tmac]

It seems to me that faith is the father/mother of fact and in fact in order to trust a fact one must have faith in it. So why the war, why do the sons and daughters of faith and the sons and daughters of fact fight with each other, they're so intricately intertwined, is it because some one has to be on top?

 

[Kemosloby]

No, you only need faith to trust in a fact which you don't know is fact, hoping for good reason that it is.

 

[Tmac]

No, you only need faith to trust in a fact which you don't know is fact, hoping for good reason that it is.

So for you the faith was like toilet paper, you throw it away when you don't need it anymore.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It seems to me that faith is the father/mother of fact ...

Nonsense.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

This depends entirely on how you define "faith".

 

[Kemosloby]

So for you the faith was like toilet paper, you throw it away when you don't need it anymore.

Well that is pretty nasty. Rephrase it and I might answer your question.

 

[ChristineM]

It seems to me that faith is the father/mother of fact and in fact in order to trust a fact one must have faith in it. So why the war, why do the sons and daughters of faith and the sons and daughters of fact fight with each other, they're so intricately intertwined, is it because some one has to be on top?

Faith simply requires belief that something is believable. Fact must be "known" or proven to be true.


Faith :
*Strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.
* complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

Fact :
* a thing that is known or proved to be true.
* the truth about events as opposed to interpretation.

As to why the arguments?, to claim belief without evidence is fact to a realist is an insult to intelligence

 

[ChristineM]

This depends entirely on how you define "faith".

Faith is well defined, if the individual diverts from the definition then the problem lies with the individual, not the definition

 

[Tmac]

This depends entirely on how you define "faith".

Yes it does, doesn't it? So why not try the most simplest and see if it walks?

 

[Tmac]

Faith simply requires belief that something is believable. Fact must be "known" or proven to be true.


Faith :
*Strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.
* complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

Fact :
* a thing that is known or proved to be true.
* the truth about events as opposed to interpretation.

As to why the arguments?, to claim belief without evidence is fact to a realist is an insult to intelligence

Is a teacher insulted by the misunderstandings of its students, (should I have qualified what I meant by teacher.

BTW, the first definition of faith in my dictionary is the more generic one.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

It seems to me that faith is the father/mother of fact and in fact in order to trust a fact one must have faith in it. So why the war, why do the sons and daughters of faith and the sons and daughters of fact fight with each other, they're so intricately intertwined, is it because some one has to be on top?

I think you are creating a false dichotomy. Plenty who have faith in a higher power also believe in a ton of facts.

You would have to demonstrate why you believe that all facts are faith based. . . Just saying it's the case . . . doesn't make it so.

And civil discussion and war are not the same thing. I take some issue with the use of the term to describe interactions between belief and no belief.

 

[bobhikes]

It seems to me that faith is the father/mother of fact and in fact in order to trust a fact one must have faith in it. So why the war, why do the sons and daughters of faith and the sons and daughters of fact fight with each other, they're so intricately intertwined, is it because some one has to be on top?

Yes without faith you can't have fact but people equate faith with religious faith and adding that word religious to it changes its whole meaning. While you need faith for fact you do not need religious faith.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Yes it does, doesn't it? So why not try the most simplest and see if it walks?

The problem is that the term has multiple general uses. For example, "faith" can most generally refer simply to a "strong trust" or "belief". However, a lot of people equate this usage and another, that one being a definition of faith which often the one used by people as justification for religious, supernatural or otherwise factually unsupported beliefs. I tend to define this type of faith as "belief despite an absence of evidence, or in spite of evidence to the contrary".

For example, when I say "I have faith my wife is honest with me", it doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as when somebody says "I have faith God exists" or something similar. One simply refers to a strong (not necessarily un-earned) trust or belief, whereas the other only tends to come out in religious debates wherein an individual cannot think of further logical justification for their position. Not always, of course, but it tends to be a fairly common usage.

A common problem I encounter in religious discussions is when people equate the two. I.E: "you have faith that your wife is honest - therefore, you are no different to me when I say I have faith in God's existence". While they use the same term, they are effectively referring to two very different things. For the sake of clarity, I recommend you provide at least two distinct definitions of faith and make it clear which one you are referring to - that way you may prevent confusion.

 

[ChristineM]

Is a teacher insulted by the misunderstandings of its students, (should I have qualified what I meant by teacher.

BTW, the first definition of faith in my dictionary is the more generic one.

A teacher teaching faith as fact has no business educating students.

And still it does not define define faith as anything more than personal belief.

 

[PureX]

It seems to me that faith is the father/mother of fact and in fact in order to trust a fact one must have faith in it. So why the war, why do the sons and daughters of faith and the sons and daughters of fact fight with each other, they're so intricately intertwined, is it because some one has to be on top?

We trust in facts based on experience, not on faith.

We engage in faith when we don't have the necessary facts, and we feel we must move forward without them.

 

[ChristineM]

We trust in facts based on experience, not on faith.

We engage in faith when we don't have the necessary facts, and we feel we must move forward without them.

Except of course in situations where faith holds back progress.

 

[PureX]

Except of course in situations where faith holds back progress.

I suspect that you are confusing faith with religion, and religion with bad religion. But I acknowledge your point. Misapplied faith can definitely "set us back" as individuals and as societies.

But it's not faith that is the problem, but it's misrepresentation of it by bad religion, and the misapplication of it by individuals.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Is a teacher insulted by the misunderstandings of its students, (should I have qualified what I meant by teacher.

I can tell you that the teacher probably would be (whether they admit to it or not) if the student would not stop insisting that they knew better.

 

[David T]

It seems to me that faith is the father/mother of fact and in fact in order to trust a fact one must have faith in it. So why the war, why do the sons and daughters of faith and the sons and daughters of fact fight with each other, they're so intricately intertwined, is it because some one has to be on top?

I have faith my building won't suddenly collapse. It does not mean it can't. The freud jung split falls into here. Where the completely functionally insane father freud and his son jung have a huge split.. Freud is insane he sees the unconscious emperically dna genetics etc he has zero awareness of it personally. Religion is about 95%freudian and so is science. Functional madness completely clueless to itself. We aggregate it and all it culture. I could refresh the following I go to the forest to loose my freud and find my jung. Archetypes people.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I suspect that you are confusing faith with religion, and religion with bad religion. But I acknowledge your point. Misapplied faith can definitely "set us back" as individuals and as societies.

But it's not faith that is the problem, but it's misrepresentation of it by bad religion, and the misapplication of it by individuals.

How do you differentiate "bad religion" from "good religion" (or from simply "religion")?