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Faith, Belief, Trust

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Yes. Humans are not difficult to coerce. It's largely the point of hazing rituals - put someone through a difficult ordeal to become part of a group and they have to tell themselves the group is that much more awesome to rationalize the abuse they faced.


so you believe under duress, they will submit as a pain avoidance? is that really loyalty to that other self, or is it a focus on loyalty to self-survival?
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
so you believe under duress, they will submit as a pain avoidance?

That's not what I'm talking about. If you aren't very familiar with hazing rituals, which are one time only ordeals, do a little research. Or don't. Up to you.
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
If you're interested in the concept of forced loyalty, I would highly recommend reading George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four. While it is a fictional work, it does help to illustrate the malleability of the human mind.

Loyalty can indeed be forced. Loyalty is very often forced, regularly without the individual even being conscious that they're being coerced.
 

LukeS

Active Member
Can loyalty be forced?
Stub your toe enough times and you'll be loyal to being more careful. Is that force? Yes I think the psyche exerts force on us.

"An ascetic was asked what Taqwa is. He said: “What will you do if you enter a piece of land full of thistles?” The one who had asked the question said: “I will keep away myself from it.” the ascetic said: “Do the same in world, it is Taqwa.”"

:: Kalam and Beliefs :: What Is Piety (Taqwa)

^^

Piety is active belief and makes us trusting, in that we have a sense of security because we avoid dumb *** foolery.
 
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Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
That's not what I'm talking about. If you aren't very familiar with hazing rituals, which are one time only ordeals, do a little research. Or don't. Up to you.

coercion involves punishment and survival. it would be considered a negative reinforcement to maintain an acceptance as part of a group. this doesn't actually produce loyalty if the someone finds something else that then takes over the group by force, like a larger group or more negatively-intelligent group. it is the difference between being of the world and being in the world. loyalty is temporarily give to the strongest for survival. the jews submitted to such a force in europe.

one is self-evident and reinforced from within and the other is doubtful and enforced from outside.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Sheeple is the apporos term I think.
thank you. that word alone is pretty descriptive.

it is the difference between knowing about something from an authoritative person and understanding and acceptance of something from a first person experience..


one is enforced knowledge alone, the other is experiential for all people..

Matthew 10:24-25
24 “The student is not above the teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for students to be like their teachers, and servants like their masters. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebul, how much more the members of his household!
 
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Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Yes. Peer pressure, for example.
one is blind loyalty to authority vs the other is loyalty based on understanding. so is it loyalty or the mimicking/imitating of loyalty?
 
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Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Yes.
Most 'family' loyalty is forced because of social programing.

programming vs insight? so which one is trust vs doubtful, its the difference between force as a negative and force as positive.


like when people push your button and people are drawn to something
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Stub your toe enough times and you'll be loyal to being more careful. Is that force? Yes I think the psyche exerts force on us.



^^

Piety is active belief and makes us trusting, in that we have a sense of security because we avoid dumb *** foolery.

one is experiential and the other is just knowledge of something; so better to experience something for self than simply follow blind authority.

even jesus loved a doubter

.
 

Electra

Active Member
programming vs insight? so which one is trust vs doubtful, its the difference between force as a negative and force as positive.


like when people push your button and people are drawn to something

negative force being further from source, positive being bringing closer to source,
negative pulls while with positive you have to push
so therefore programing pulls you in and one must push to gain insight
in this algery though sometimes you use both sides of the coin
if you are doubtfull, to pull trust towards as you push out doubt
so in reality there is really no negative or positive or difference as such

philosophy maths, lol

like a rat in a cage
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
negative force being further from source, positive being bringing closer to source,
negative pulls while with positive you have to push
so therefore programing pulls you in and one must push to gain insight
in this algery though sometimes you use both sides of the coin
if you are doubtfull, to pull trust towards as you push out doubt
so in reality there is really no negative or positive or difference as such

philosophy maths, lol

like a rat in a cage
imo its the difference between a shepherd and a drover. sheep are drawn to the shepherd, where drovers drive before them using fear.
 
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