1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Fairness and transgender athletes

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by lewisnotmiller, Aug 8, 2022.

  1. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    42,670
    Ratings:
    +17,419
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I found the Williams-Braasch example compelling.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Orbit

    Orbit I'm a planet

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2014
    Messages:
    2,763
    Ratings:
    +3,767
    Religion:
    Dinner
    I am female cisgender, and in my youth played softball and volleyball. It wouldn't have bothered me at all if a transgender female was on the team. I'm kind of baffled by the whole kerfluffle.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Debater Slayer

    Debater Slayer Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    24,613
    Ratings:
    +25,510
    I'm assuming you have a peer-reviewed study evidencing this supposed athletic consensus. Otherwise what you have just stated is merely another opinion on the issue.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  4. Debater Slayer

    Debater Slayer Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    24,613
    Ratings:
    +25,510
    Racially supremacist rhetoric has no place in finding a solution to an issue as complex and multifaceted as trans people's competition in sports.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. Debater Slayer

    Debater Slayer Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    24,613
    Ratings:
    +25,510
    I agree. I don't have any straightforward answers, myself, but I do believe acknowledging the complexity and nuance of the issue in question is the first step toward finding a reasonable solution.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    14,411
    Ratings:
    +13,612
    Religion:
    none
    But there are only a limited number of places, so some women will miss out on a place in the final, etc.

    It also devalues women's sport, as getting Olympic gold for being 6th but the fastest non-trans athlete just isn't the same.

    It would be confusing as you'd need to keep track of who you are actually competing against and would thus negatively impact competition.

    Also wouldn't work for team sports, or sports with knockout format like tennis.

    It's still not as bad as the ludicrous "abolish women's sport and have everyone compete by muscle mass" proposal, but it's not exactly a humdinger :D
     
  7. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    219,288
    Ratings:
    +85,036
    Religion:
    Atheist
    In a team sport that's more skill dependent, such an
    advantage could go unnoticed. It appears much more
    of an issue with individual sports, eg, track, swimming.
    In those, there are examples where a trans female has
    been dominant.
    Female NCAA athlete speaks out against 'unfair' transgender competition
    I can see letting the cis & trans athletes compete together,
    but with separate placings & records. Let the trans athlete
    win & set records, but let them be a separate category.
     
  8. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    219,288
    Ratings:
    +85,036
    Religion:
    Atheist
    That isn't a problem yet, since dominant trans athletes
    are uncommon. If ever it becomes one, it could be
    addressed then.
    Again, that's not a problem.
    I see no confusion. Moreover, it might even enhance
    competition if trans athletes set the bar higher.
    Is that currently a problem in team events with high skill?
    There have been some dumb remedies suggested &
    even tried We needn't concern ourselves with those.
     
  9. Debater Slayer

    Debater Slayer Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    24,613
    Ratings:
    +25,510
    Why do you think competing by muscle mass is "ludicrous"? I haven't read much about the details of that suggestion, but on the surface, it sounds potentially viable in some individual sports.
     
  10. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    14,411
    Ratings:
    +13,612
    Religion:
    none
    Also illustrative is that the Women's 100m record has been beaten by a 14 year old boy.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Leaderless Animal

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    15,734
    Ratings:
    +15,714
    Religion:
    zen
    No. Race is a social construct. Humans share approximately 99.9% of their genetic code with one another.
     
  12. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    14,411
    Ratings:
    +13,612
    Religion:
    none
    If transwomen have an unfair advantage, which they do, even 1 person missing out on the Olympics, or competing in a major final is unfair.

    I imagine the people competing would disagree with you there.

    It's causing a lot of controversy in sports like rugby and Aussie rules due to the dangers involved.

    Being pound-for-pound bigger, faster, stronger or more explosive is generally an advantage in most sports

    For example, many endurance sports are quite tactical, and people may use a variety of strategies. It would be very confusing if you weren't quite sure who you were actually competing against.

    Also for the purpose of records, it can impact performance. In cycling being in someone's slipstream reduces wind resistance by something like 30%, and in distance running an event with male pacemakers would invalidate a woman's record for similar reasons.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. sun rise

    sun rise Śvāna Dharma
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2014
    Messages:
    74,426
    Ratings:
    +38,569
    Religion:
    Love/Omnism
    I think the proposal in the article would work for most cases. It's not perfect but life is not perfect.

    But I've read somewhere that flexibility-based sports are different. Women are inherently more flexible and I've read that advantage persists over trans women. So the situation might be different for gymnastics. Trans women would retain strength but perhaps cis women have the edge on flexibility so that might be an exception.

    Does anyone know if my thought about gymnastics has been tested?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    14,411
    Ratings:
    +13,612
    Religion:
    none
    Basically it can't be measured precisely enough to be fair, especially at non-elite level, and male muscles are still pound-for-pound more efficient, and men have other advantages so there would be no elite women.

    Also, no one wants to watch the Olympics XYZ muscle mass final, followed by the ABC muscle mass final followed by the 123 muscle mass final...

    So it's unmanageable, unfair, ends women's sports and ruins the spectacle :D
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  15. Debater Slayer

    Debater Slayer Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    24,613
    Ratings:
    +25,510
    Many trans women have little to no advantage and rank below a lot of cis women in sports, though. I think asserting that trans women automatically have an unfair advantage oversimplifies the issue, especially when we consider that this specific question may have vastly different answers depending on which sport we focus on.

    There are also competitors who have no problems at all with trans women's participation. Personally, I think it is better to prioritize scientific and medical evidence over individual athletes' opinions when attempting to tackle the subject.

    That's not to say their opinions should be entirely disregarded, but they're too subjective to be the primary driver of sporting policies when said policies need to take into account multilayered medical questions.
     
  16. Debater Slayer

    Debater Slayer Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    24,613
    Ratings:
    +25,510
    I imagine that almost any solution will have inherent pros and cons. I don't know whether there's a perfect solution.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    14,411
    Ratings:
    +13,612
    Religion:
    none
    Gymnastics relies more on power and explosion though. The only possible exception is the beam due to the balance required, but I've no idea how that factor is impacted.
     
  18. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    219,288
    Ratings:
    +85,036
    Religion:
    Atheist
    I can imagine ways to address that, eg, increasing
    the number of athletes allowed if any are trans.
    Who has placed 6th, but was 1st in the "non-trans" classification?
    I don't believe that your scenario or anything similar exists.
    Is it hypothetical controversy, or is it a real problem?
    It could still be dealt with by stringent requirements
    for extent & duration of transition.
    This is so. But I'd rather see an empirical argument.
    Sports vary in the skill vs athleticism balance.
    Do you have an example of someone at a disadvantage
    because they don't know their competition?
    I'm not proposing that women always compete with
    men, but rather that cis women compete with trans women.
    Although in many local distance races, men & women
    compete together. They're just ranked in different classes.
     
  19. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    14,411
    Ratings:
    +13,612
    Religion:
    none
    There may be no perfect solution, but there aren't many worse than that one as it has no pros whatsoever. It ends elite women's sport and ruins elite men's.

    This is simply because most transwomen weren't high level athletes to start with. The fact that a mediocre athlete does not become elite after transitioning is not evidence it is fair. You would still have to be in the top few percent of male athletes pre-transition before you start winning.

    So it is the wrong point of comparison. Almost all will be comparatively better post-transition.

    Fairness should mean that you are operate at comparatively the same level pre and post transition. So if you are a top 100 male you are a top 100 female. Not that if you were a top 10,000 male you are 'only' a top 100 female.

    With the swimmer Lia Thomas, she was maybe top 500 as a male, and top 1 by an absolute mile post-transition (and there is some evidence, based on timing splits, that she is sandbagging to make her margins of victory slightly less ludicrous).

    Almost any high level, but sub-elite, male will become elite post-transition.

    The scientific evidence is transwomen retain a large advantage in any sport male puberty brings an advantage.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  20. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    14,411
    Ratings:
    +13,612
    Religion:
    none
    It's very real as people can suffer life-changing injuries.

    In general, transwomen probably retain advantages indefinitely, but they certainly retain their larger body size which is the main problem in these sports as they have violent collisions.

    Cycling.

    You race in large numbers over 200km with people attacking and trying to break away from the peloton. Knowing who you may have to respond to is essential.

    Also, given following someone is such an advantage, if someone from the trans category broke away and was followed by someone from the women's category, the latter would gain a significant advantage compared to those she is competing against.

    But even athletics, you need to respond to what others do in a split second.

    Compare the performance of men and women at any high skill sport that requires athletic ability. That's very empirical.

    The track has 8 lanes. You can't have more finalists.

    It doesn't exist as it was your hypothetical solution. I was explaining the problems that may occur if it did exist.
     
Loading...