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Fairness and transgender athletes

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by lewisnotmiller, Aug 8, 2022.

  1. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Yes, that can of worms. First, I'm not looking to 'simply' rehash conversations. I read an article today, on a website which generally has a good journalistic balance. And I found the article interesting. If you want to contribute to this thread...please read the article.

    Striking a balance between fairness in competition and the rights of transgender athletes

    The concept of trying to combine a generalised approach to this, with some recognition of the actual issues was refreshing. Do I think it's the answer? Well...no. but I think there are some elements that helped me move my thinking forward (it's an issue I struggle with).

    First, quick declaration of bias.
    I spend a lot of time attending and coaching female junior sports, specifically basketball. That colours my thinking, I'll readily admit it.

    What I found interesting was the idea that we could come up with a generalised framework, and then have an individual approach cooked in to that framework.

    The basic concept of changing men's sport to 'open' seems fine. Some junior sport here already works that way, for various specific reasons I'm happy to cover, but they're unrelated to transgender athletes to the best of my knowledge.

    And the idea of having some sort of approval process for athletes to compete in women's sport seems okay, I think, although the way it would be handled in detail would be key.

    I do think it would vary from sport to sport in terms of what that approval process should look like, or even if it's required.

    So...thoughts?

    Please don't come here with disparaging remarks about transgender athletes because I have NO interest in that.
    And equally, if you're coming with allowing people to select their gender freely and compete in whatever division they wish...or on simply scrapping women's sport...please be aware sports is a topic I take very seriously. So don't do it lightly.
     
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  2. Aštra’el

    Aštra’el Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth

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    There is only one real solution, and the vast majority of athletes and people with a competitive athletic background understand it… and why.

    -Boys/ Men’s sports are open to anyone who has what it takes

    -Girls/ Women’s sports are exclusively for non-transgender females

    -Trans can attempt to compete with the boys/ men, or form their own leagues

    This is the only solution. As I have said before… we segregate sports based off sex, to provide an arena where females can train hard and physically excel, and experience glory and victory -individually and as a team- without males interfering with female achievements.
     
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  3. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    The solutions are going to be complicated and specific to individual sports. And the 'one-size-fits-all' crowd isn't going to like that. So it'll take a long time to work it all out.
     
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  4. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    I wonder if renaming woman's as 'protected' would help too. It's aesthetically unappealing, but cuts off arguments about "policing who is woman enough" to compete.

    I'm not sure ow it would be measured, but unless it's on biological markers, I guess this would lead to people sandbagging to keep in their preferred category. Operate at 80% until you need to then briefly up your levels.

    Also it's a bit unfair as you would basically be punishing transwomen for being better athletes than other transwomen. Train hard and get too good and you get stuck in open category, potentially while a less capable transwoman wins the women's race.
     
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  5. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Leaderless Animal

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    ^^^^
    This.
     
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  6. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Leaderless Animal

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    Is this a new RF rule? :oops:
     
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  7. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Leaderless Animal

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    That's the end of this thread then.
     
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  8. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Yes, I completely agree with this. I'm really just trying to improve my own thoughts and understanding on this one baby step at a time.

    There's a small chance I end up having to deal with this at some point.
     
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  9. Aštra’el

    Aštra’el Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth

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    No.. I’m expecting it to get flooded with opinions from people who have no experience competing in sports, yet somehow believe they have an extensive understanding of what female athletes are going through.
     
    #9 Aštra’el, Aug 8, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2022
  10. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Without worrying too much about the wording, I get where you're coming from. For me, personally, I'm not worried about that. Interesting point though.

    I'm also not sure, but it can't be on performance. Lots of problems with that.
    Some examples (which are somewhat sports specific) are around biological markers, when transition occurred, etc.

    Yep, agree. That's needlessly unfair.
     
  11. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    My starting point for the sport I still play and coach (basketball) is kinda here, tbh.
    But at a macro level I'm still working through this. I'm generally not a fan of black and white. Life doesn't work that way.
     
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  12. Aštra’el

    Aštra’el Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth

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    I just don’t see any other way. But, may you find what you are looking for.
     
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  13. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Leaderless Animal

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    Odd suggested labelling - open or women's...o_O
    Surely a more appropriate matched pair of words could be used. I fancy yin and yang.
    Anyhoo, interesting article. It's going to take time to get right. Right for participants, not politicians.
     
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  14. wellwisher

    wellwisher Well-Known Member

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    Where the main problem lies, is connected to the Progressive movement trying to sell too many social engineering lies as truth. The feminist movement, for example, tried to sell the notion that men and women were equal. But this made no sense in sports, since men are physically different and have more muscularity and aggressive drive. However, one was not allowed to speak the truth, or you were a hater. Men are more likely to commit crime which means they have a propensity to depart from order.

    But since not everyone drank the kool-aid, the eventual problem became, how do you keep selling this misinformation, while also benefitting women for their own achievement, without big brother enforcing the lie with regulations, designed to cheat nature, in favor of that lie? There is more glory doing anything on your own, compared to winning by lying and cheating.

    Luckily enough women were able to think clearly about differences in men and women and pushed to start for their own leagues, against the misinformation push. But since women were on center stage either way, women were able to make the needed changes based on common sense. Getting rid of the lie was good, with many women able to enjoy the glory of sports under their own wings. This has benefits many little girls.

    Now we have the gender propaganda and misinformation with this lie suddenly appearing on center stage; large pilot plant study. The data shows athletic performance was not based on choice of gender, but on birth DNA. The lie still does not want to go away, so we still need to walk on eggshells, instead of face reality. Lying to spare feelings is a short term fix that backfires in the end. It will cause suffering for the Progressive pawns in this lie.

    The one thing I do not understand is how can transgender people even compete in any organized sports, since such people are full of drugs designed to enhance the performance of their chosen gender? Aren't performance enhancing drugs taboo in sports? A natural male or female athlete can get disqualified for taking over the counter medicines. This rigged system is needed for the lie, since transgenders should have failed the drug test, imposed on everyone else. When there is a dual standard, assume liars are at work.

    Speaking of lies, in professional mens sports, especially basketball, black males disproportionately dominate the sport. Is this due to the conspiracy of black privilege or birth genetics and hard work? When Asians do well on entrance exams into top universities is this due to a conspiracy of Asian privilege or is this based on birth genetics and hard work? The answer is birth genetics and hard work to top this off, and not on a conspiracy. This is an introduction to worse of the Progressive lies; race and the conspiracy of privilege. There is no white privilege but rather whites have a different genetic makeup. This and hard work favors them in certain areas of culture. It is like sports, with not everyone good at all sports, but each person may excel in certain sports.

    There are genetic difference among the races. These are not based on conspiracy or privilege but on biology. The white races of Europe had to deal with cooler wether winter, for thousands of years. This is why they have less skin pigment. Winter requires more adaptation skills than does summer. One cannot just gather all years long, but need to learn to save. Over time, and through natural selection, this resulted in more planning and forced innovating skills. Winter is also true for the three main Asian cultures. China, Korea and Japan all have snow. This simple truth would make it much easier to move forward in a rational way, so we can accept people for who they are, without adding all the conspiracy theory lies, used to rig the system and cause division.
     
    #14 wellwisher, Aug 8, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2022
  15. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    I agree that an "open" category might resolve some of these issues, although the process of determining who is appropriate for which category would vary from sport to sport.

    I don't take sports as seriously as I once did. I think the idolizing of the "jock culture" has had a somewhat negative effect on the culture overall, particularly when it comes to things like toxic masculinity and bullying.

    It's a common trope in our culture to portray the big, muscle-headed jock picking on the bookish, intellectual, 98-pound weakling, and I attribute much of this mentality to the glorification and hero-worship associated with major league sports and bigtime athletes. I would also say that it relates to the perceived anti-intellectualism which many people are complaining about. Think of a state like Texas where they reject science, reject evolution, reject vaccines - yet football is practically a state religion.

    Physical education classes seemed more set up to prepare boys for boot camp than anything else. My junior high school P.E. teacher was a former drill instructor in the military.

    I'm not trying to steer away from the topic, but in order to get a handle on this issue, it might be worthwhile to look back and try to determine why these sports became so important and serious in many people's eyes. Meaning no disrespect, but when you say you take sports very seriously, I have to ask: Why? It's just a game, after all.
     
    #15 Stevicus, Aug 8, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2022
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  16. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Leaderless Animal

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    You're presumably not aware, but @lewisnotmiller is an Australian I believe. :D
     
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  17. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    The only solution?
    Goodness gracious you've much confidence.
    I see a better way.
    Let all compete as they identify.
    But results, eg, records, classifications, are
    separate for trans & non-trans athletes.
    This gives no unfair (whatever that means)
    advantage to anyone in the record books.
    Yet it's maximally inclusive regarding gender.
     
    #17 Revoltingest, Aug 8, 2022
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  18. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    So let trans athletes compete in men's sports based on phenotype and not genotype. Both trans men and transwomen would probably have greater muscle than females in general.

    what i also find interesting is the idea of intersexed people in this mix. being trans is more similar to intersexed than an absolute male or female.
     
  19. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    I was aware that @lewisnotmiller was Australian, although I didn't know they were like Texas football fans - or maybe Indiana basketball fans.

    Rivalries between teams can also bring out some rabid fans, even at the level of local high schools. The Yankees-Red Sox rivalry is an interesting historical and cultural phenomenon, as well as the Dodgers-Giants rivalry. I think there was even a shooting at a Dodgers-Giants game (not at the game itself, but in the stadium parking lot).

    Then there have been post-game riots which have occurred from jubilant fans going berserk because their team won a championship game. So, naturally, that's a good excuse to set fires and turn over automobiles.
     
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  20. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Leaderless Animal

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    Sport seems to be prone to causing such behaviour. British football fans (I say "fans") have an appalling reputation when abroad (eg World Cup, Euros).
     
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