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Featured Failed NT Prophecies about the Second Coming of Jesus

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Hubert Farnsworth, Jun 4, 2018.

  1. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    You still aren't getting what I'm saying. Matthew 16:27 is Jesus promising something that will happen at some indeterminate time in the distant future, and then in the next verse, Matthew 16:28 he is telling them that they will see the beginning of these distant events. The angels and Jesus presence, not a literal presence would occur after a great many things would happen, the beginning of which was about to transpire.

    Before the angels come Jesus would have to go through a series of events, like, his death, war in heaven, etc. But they would be witnessing the beginning of it with the transfiguration.
     
  2. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    That is because it was so obviously wrong. If you read the prophecy Tyre is the same location as it is now, except then it was an island. That the settlements were destroyed hardly makes it a fulfilled prophecy. Tyre is and was the island. Tyre never fell as you said in your post. In fact if you read the verses just before the failed Egyptian prophecy that was made you will see that even Zeke admitted his failure:

    "17 In the twenty-seventh year, in the first month on the first day, the word of the Lord came to me: 18 “Son of man, Nebuchadnezzarking of Babylon drove his army in a hard campaign against Tyre; every head was rubbed bare and every shoulder made raw.Yet he and his army got no reward from the campaign he led against Tyre"


    Not only was the prophecy a failed one, it was an admitted failed prophecy. If you don't even read the work being discussed you are not in a very good position to complain.

    And that was hardly a "wall of text". What are using, a phone? It is a well laid out article. It goes over the failure from several different viewpoints.

    You claimed that Nebby defeated Tyre, he never did so. he never entered the city as predicted in the prophecy.
     
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  3. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 16:28 says "Some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

    Note the phrase "coming in his kingdom." There is no way that this could be a reference to the transfiguration, because Jesus (a.k.a. the "Son of Man") did not "come" from anywhere as he was already there. Additionally, his kingdom obviously did not arrive at that time, since of course Jesus hasn't been ruling the world with an iron fist since then. You are going to great lengths to try to make this verse about the transfiguration, when clearly it has nothing to do with it. Again, the fact that the same prophecy (which clearly refers to an end-of-the-world "rapture" scenario) is repeated in different contexts that are not followed immediately by a chapter about the transfiguration further proves that the two are unrelated.
     
  4. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    Let's say its early on in a country's history. You and I have gone back in time. We're standing on an open dusty plain outside of a small town and I say to you, "Some day this dusty ghost town will be connected to an entirely new world! You will be able to travel from here to across the country, and even you will see it coming." A month later you are standing in that same spot and they begin building the railroad that will make it all come true.

    It's like that.

    I know you want to accept the failed prophecy, but in order to do that you have to be able to compare your interpretation of Matthew 16:27-28 with all of the rest of the Bible. It has to fit like a piece of puzzle. And it doesn't. You can't see it because you don't know the meaning of the Bible. For example, what is the Kingdom? What is Judgement day, which has to come before the Kingdom. Why does the Bible make it clear that Jesus and his disciples didn't know when that time would come, exactly but knew that many things had to take place first. None of that jives with your interpretation so it can't be right. This is what you have to do when contemplating the Bible.
     
  5. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Did Jesus return to rapture the believers and rain judgment on the unbelievers in the first century? Did the stars fall to the earth? Did the Apocalypse occur? If not, then the prophecies failed. Again, read the context of Luke 21, Mark 13, etc. which are prophecies that mirror this one exactly, with the specific time-table given to the disciples that they would happen within their lifetimes. You'll see that they clearly failed.
     
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  6. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    The rapture is a relatively new arrival to Christian teachings, first presented by Darby in the 19th century? It isn't a Bible teaching. Earth was created for man to live forever upon it. The meek will inherit . . .

    Yes, actually. Though it depends on what stars you are talking about. They are used figuratively to represent angels falling from heaven, as well as political and social upheaval. For example, in the prophets of the Hebrew scriptures as well as Revelation.

    Not yet, that's sort of the point I'm trying to make. Things have to occur before the kingdom is set up, so you can't apply a second coming in a physical sense to Jesus.
     
  7. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Wrong. The rapture IS found in the bible. See Matthew 24:39-41: "And they were oblivious until the flood came and swept them all away. So will be the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left....."

    Bear in mind this same failed prophecy is mentioned in Matt. 24 as well.........
     
  8. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    The rapture is also found in Matthew 24:30-31: "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

    Now bear in mind that Matthew 24:34 mirrors Luke 21:32, stating that all of this will occur before the disciples' generation passes away. Also note the mention of angels in this passage, and how it mirrors that of Matthew 16:27, in which angels, as well as rewards/judgment, are also mentioned. Also note that another apocalyptic chapter dealing with the rapture, Mark 13, exactly mirrors the language found in Matthew 10:21-23, which also states that this event (the rapture/return of the Son of Man) will occur within the disciples' lifetimes, or more specifically, before they finish going through the towns of Israel. Again, when examining all of this context more carefully, it is quite evident that these are explicit prophecies of an Armageddon-like event that was supposed to have occurred in the first century, but did not occur.
     
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  9. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Luke 21:32 New International Version (NIV)
    “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

    The question is did that generation passed away? In lay man's term, they passed away however it was the Lord Jesus Christ who spoke with certainty that 'Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.' What did the Lord Jesus Christ mean?

    John 11:1-45 New International Version (NIV)
    Now a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. (This Mary, whose brother Lazarus now lay sick, was the same one who poured perfume on the Lord and wiped his feet with her hair.) So the sisters sent word to Jesus, “Lord, the one you love is sick.”

    When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s Son may be glorified through it.” Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. So when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days, and then he said to his disciples, “Let us go back to Judea.”

    “But Rabbi,” they said, “a short while ago the Jews there tried to stone you, and yet you are going back?”

    Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Anyone who walks in the daytime will not stumble, for they see by this world’s light. It is when a person walks at night that they stumble, for they have no light.”

    After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.

    His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

    So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

    Then Thomas (also known as Didymus) said to the rest of the disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”

    On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. Now Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.

    “Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”

    Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

    Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

    Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

    “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

    After she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary aside. “The Teacher is here,” she said, “and is asking for you.” When Mary heard this, she got up quickly and went to him. Now Jesus had not yet entered the village, but was still at the place where Martha had met him. When the Jews who had been with Mary in the house, comforting her, noticed how quickly she got up and went out, they followed her, supposing she was going to the tomb to mourn there.

    When Mary reached the place where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and said, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.”

    When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. “Where have you laid him?” he asked.

    “Come and see, Lord,” they replied.

    Jesus wept.

    Then the Jews said, “See how he loved him!”

    But some of them said, “Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?”

    Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. “Take away the stone,” he said.

    “But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.”

    Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”

    So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”

    When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.

    Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go.”

    Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did, believed in him.
    upload_2018-6-10_21-31-51.jpeg

    Those who are chosen [this generation] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. And true they are just fallen asleep.

    To bolster this truth, there are other verses in the Bible which depicts this:

    1 Corinthians 15:51-52 New International Version (NIV)
    Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 New International Version (NIV)
    Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.
     
  10. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    This is a very strained rationalization IMO. Also, you did not address Matt. 10:23, which clearly predicts a first-century return of Jesus.
     
  11. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Not fancy, it is in the Bible. If it is not then I wouldn't cited any verse references. It is plainly written what the Lord Jesus Christ said.

    Luke 8:51-55 New International Version (NIV)
    When he arrived at the house of Jairus, he did not let anyone go in with him except Peter, John and James, and the child’s father and mother. Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. “Stop wailing,” Jesus said. “She is not dead but asleep.”

    They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. But he took her by the hand and said, “My child, get up!” Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up. Then Jesus told them to give her something to eat.
    [​IMG]

    Hence the generation that Jesus spoke to, isn't dead but asleep.

    With regards to:
    Matthew 10:23 New International Version (NIV)
    When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

    The follow up questions on this are:
    Did the apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ successful in converting the entire Israel in believing that Jesus Christ is Lord and Messiah? Did they finish going through the towns of Israel?Has the Son of Man arrived yet?

    The Son of Man has yet to make his come back. The apostles were not able to finish going through the towns of Israel , as foretold and the apostles [and the church] were persecuted.

    Acts 11:19 New International Version (NIV)
    Now those who had been scattered by the persecution that broke out when Stephen was killed traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, spreading the word only among Jews.

    Acts 12:1 New International Version (NIV)
    It was about this time that King Herod arrested some who belonged to the church, intending to persecute them.

    Acts 8:1 New International Version (NIV)
    And Saul approved of their killing him.

    On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.

    upload_2018-6-10_23-2-30.jpeg
     
  12. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    Taken where? How?

    1 Corinthians 15:50, RS: “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.”

    Matthew 5:5, RS: “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.”

    1 Corinthians 15:35-36;44, RS: “Some one will ask, ‘How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?’ You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body.”
     
  13. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    I would like for you to show how exactly do all these things that you had given, As to how do they fit into the book of Revelation.

    When brothers betraying each other and parents and children betraying each other, and being hated for being followers of Jesus. When does this happen according to the book of Revelation ?

    According to the book of Revelation, What is the final judgement , Now there are two Judgements that will take place.
    So which judgement are you in reference to

    Now as for Matthew 10:21-22,
    Mark 13:9-13 and Luke 21:12-17.
    That you given, As to how does these fit into the book of Revelation ?

    There is a clue that's found in them, that will give how exactly they will fit into the book of Revelation.
    And they all will happen before the second coming of Christ Jesus.

    Now as for Matthew 16:27-28, you do like alot of Christians do, cherry picking verses.

    Unto which Matthew 16:27-28 has nothing at all to do with Jesus second coming.

    All your doing is taking Verse's 27-28 out of their context. Which has nothing at all to do with Jesus second coming.

    Had you back up to the beginning of Chapter 16, you might haved found out, what Jesus is giving is about his death and Resurrection.
    So if this is about Jesus second coming, As you say it is, Then can you explain how exactly in Verse 4 how the sign of the Prophet Jonas of the three days and three nights fits into the second coming of Christ Jesus.
    And how exactly does Verse's 9-10, When the disciples took bread and fed five thousand people, Just how exactly does this fit into the second coming of Jesus ?

    After the death and Resurrection of Jesus,
    Jesus came in the glory of his Father.

    As for Verse 28, Jesus speaking to people before his death and Resurrection, that how many standing there, will not die, till they see the Son of man ( Jesus ) coming in his kingdom. And many people did see Jesus after his death and Resurrection.

    As recorded (After that he was seen by over five hundred people at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep (1 Corinthians 15:6).
     
  14. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Not buying it. The apologetic is strained and contrived.
     
  15. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    They don’t. Mark and Luke have nothing to do with Revelation.
     
  16. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Matt. 16:27-28 has nothing to do with the resurrection. There was no judgment or rewards given at the resurrection according to the bible, yet Matt. 16:27 mentions rewards given to each person according to what they have done. The other verses are also clearly specific prophecies about the rapture, which was supposed to occur within the first century. Again, read the entire chapters. They are in fact very similar to what can be found in much of the book of Revelation, particularly Luke 21 and Mark 13, whose language also mirrors that in Matthew 10. It all fits together. These were warnings that the apocalypse was imminent. And aside from these verses with specific timetables, the bible says numerous times that Jesus' second coming will occur "soon." Well, 2018 years later, it hasn't happened yet, and I'm not gonna hold my breath.:D
     
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  17. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    That's where your absolutely wrong at.
    Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, all goes together with the book of Revelation.

    It's evidence that you have no knowledge or understanding about the book of Revelation to say that Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 have nothing to do with Revelation

    Let's take Matthew 24:7--"For nation shall rise against Nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
    Revelation 6:4--"And there went out another horse that was red, and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another, and there was given unto him a great sword"

    So you have Nation against Nation, kingdom against kingdom, that they should kill one another.
    Matthew 24:6-7, Mark 13:8, Luke 21:10 and Revelation 6:4, all go together.

    So what you have is, The book of Revelation and Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 all go together.
     
  18. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    As to how would you like to eat your words.
    Let's take Mark 13:8 and Luke 21:10, Now notice that Nation against Nation and kingdom against kingdom.
    You do know when you have Nation against Nation and kingdom against kingdom, that they will kill each other.

    So now in the book of Revelation 6:4--"And there went out another horse that was red, and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another"

    Therefore you have Matthew 24:7, Mark 13:8, and Luke 21:10 and Revelation 6:4 all going together.
     
  19. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 16:27-28 has everything to do with the death and Resurrection of Jesus.

    You do exactly what alot of Christians do, is cherry picking Verse's

    Had you back up to the beginning of Chapter 16 and then read down to verse 28
    You would find that all of Chapter 16 from Verse 1 to Verse 28 all goes together,
    That's why you have 28 Verse's in
    Chapter 16. And not two Verse's.

    The way your going about it, you would only have two Verse's 27 & 28.
    But this is not the case,
    There are 28 Verse's in Chapter 16 of Matthew.
    And they all go together.

    So according to you Matthew 16:27-28, is about Jesus second coming.
    So how exactly does Matthew 16:4 the sign of prophet Jonas, about the three days and three nights, that Jesus spent in the tomb, fit into the second coming of Christ Jesus.

    So what your doing is cherry picking out two Verses and leaving the remaining
    Verse's 1 thru 26 undone.

    Verse's 1 thru 28 all go together. Not leaving any undone.
     
  20. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Just because there are parallels doesn’t automatically mean that the texts have anything to do with each other. Fahrenheit 451 and Rollerball are both about future, dystopian societies, but they don’t have anything to do with each other.

    It’s evidence that you have no knowledge or understanding about biblical literature to say that the books you mention are connected in some way other than they both appear in the Bible.
     
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