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Facts of Life, The Afterlife and the Number 13

james bond

Well-Known Member
I got a comment about Christians using Noah's Flood. They ignored the warnings of Sir Francis Bacon and others about using God of the Gaps. They should use science instead of the Bible even though their foundation is the Bible. Many Christians gave up Noah's Flood and went with uniformitarianism. One poster said that Alfred Russel Wallace went with it, as well. I have to agree, but not sure if he disavowed his faith. Darwin became rich and famous while Wallace quietly faded away.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
If I gave you an answer, then you'll want more answers from me. I think you want an easy answer and there isn't one.

I want an answer, yes. Then another sure. Then another, and another. I want to understand the timeline from your perspective, because I don't see how all the parts fit together from your perspective.

Do you want to understand the formation of the Grand Canyon from my perspective or are you trying to argue whether it could have been formed rapidly or whether it was formed over a long period of time. Do you have trouble understanding why anyone would think it was formed over a long period of time?
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
I want an answer, yes. Then another sure. Then another, and another. I want to understand the timeline from your perspective, because I don't see how all the parts fit together from your perspective.

Do you want to understand the formation of the Grand Canyon from my perspective or are you trying to argue whether it could have been formed rapidly or whether it was formed over a long period of time. Do you have trouble understanding why anyone would think it was formed over a long period of time?

Yes, I like YOUR explanation of the Grand Canyon in your own words since you claim to be neither this or that but a critical thinker. I like to see if you can think for yourself.

So, we have gone past Pangaea and the continental drift theory. When I arrived here at RF, atheists were arguing against it. We should also give credit to Christian scientist Alfred Wegener.

I do not have a problem with uniformitarianism as it is an acceptable theory. What you don't seem to understand is that it's not the only theory and I have been presenting catastrophism as an alternative theory. It is starting to be used by atheist scientists for explaining the beginning of the universe and how dinosaurs became extinct. We know that uniformitarianism is to counter the argument of Christians that Noah's Flood made them extinct.

Finally, you're taking things our of context in your replies. Are you just discarding many things I already said to support catastrophism like the California coast. I think people agree that it was because the ground underneath the oceans were pushed up like it had during Noah's Flood. I think we agree if I said this how our mountains were formed. You may not agree on the Flood, but the plate tectonics activity such as an earthquake pushed the ocean's floor up to form the coastline. I should have given you a clue why California is such a wealthy state. If you're a critical thinker as your state, then you should have gotten all of this.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Yes, I like YOUR explanation of the Grand Canyon in your own words since you claim to be neither this or that but a critical thinker. I like to see if you can think for yourself.

So, we have gone past Pangaea and the continental drift theory. When I arrived here at RF, atheists were arguing against it. We should also give credit to Christian scientist Alfred Wegener.

I do not have a problem with uniformitarianism as it is an acceptable theory. What you don't seem to understand is that it's not the only theory and I have been presenting catastrophism as an alternative theory. It is starting to be used by atheist scientists for explaining the beginning of the universe and how dinosaurs became extinct. We know that uniformitarianism is to counter the argument of Christians that Noah's Flood made them extinct.

Finally, you're taking things our of context in your replies. Are you just discarding many things I already said to support catastrophism like the California coast. I think people agree that it was because the ground underneath the oceans were pushed up like it had during Noah's Flood. I think we agree if I said this how our mountains were formed. You may not agree on the Flood, but the plate tectonics activity such as an earthquake pushed the ocean's floor up to form the coastline. I should have given you a clue why California is such a wealthy state. If you're a critical thinker as your state, then you should have gotten all of this.
Perhaps your having a conversation with yourself. I wasn't even sure I was supposed to comment on your mention of the California coast. I am really struggling to see why it is hard to place events on a line for you. Could you explain?

Your opening paragraph comes off as challenging. Is that your intent?
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
Perhaps your having a conversation with yourself. I wasn't even sure I was supposed to comment on your mention of the California coast. I am really struggling to see why it is hard to place events on a line for you. Could you explain?

Your opening paragraph comes off as challenging. Is that your intent?

Last point first. My opinion is you are a contrarian like myself who questions things, but a contrarian to me is someone who not just takes an opposite pov, but thinks for themselves. They can present an opposing cogent pov. So far, you've asked me a lot of questions and I'm trying my best to in this forum to answer them and I think I have. The rest you have to answer for yourself instead of just being contrarian to whatever my pov is and trying find answers that way.

I don't think it's hard to explain the Grand Canyon. I stated I believe it's due to flooding of nearby lakes and catastrophism. There could have been a great storm that caused these lakes to rise and the great power of the water and landslide carved out the canyon walls. There are some scientists who take this contrarian pov as opposed to uniformitariansim in the larger view of geologists. You seem to believe the larger view. Am I right that you can explain this view? Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying uniformitarianism or the view the GC took millions of years to form because of nature is not science.

If not, then I'll assume all of this is agreeable to you, then we can move on. The same with what happened in the great state I live, the California coastline.

If you agree, then all of the things I said point to catastrophism. That is the creation scientists argument against what Lyell proposed. And it's there on their timeline.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
Due to my conversation with Curious George, I was "curious" as to what facts came out of Noah's Flood. From this, I did uncover some findings that I wasn't aware of. Apparently, the evolution institution tried to have a controversial book that was published on rapid erosion banned for sale at Grand Canyon National Park. It's called Grand Canyon: Another View and the topic is discussed in Science News in September 30, 2000. Also, they wanted the park rangers there to only speak to the public about evolution and not present an alternative view. This isn't science the way I learned it and more evidence that evolutionists are trying to brainwash the public.

Grand Canyon Controversy
Grand Canyon Controversy

Grand Canyon Breakthrough
Grand Canyon Breakthrough
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Last point first. My opinion is you are a contrarian like myself who questions things, but a contrarian to me is someone who not just takes an opposite pov, but thinks for themselves. They can present an opposing cogent pov. So far, you've asked me a lot of questions and I'm trying my best to in this forum to answer them and I think I have. The rest you have to answer for yourself instead of just being contrarian to whatever my pov is and trying find answers that way.

I don't think it's hard to explain the Grand Canyon. I stated I believe it's due to flooding of nearby lakes and catastrophism. There could have been a great storm that caused these lakes to rise and the great power of the water and landslide carved out the canyon walls. There are some scientists who take this contrarian pov as opposed to uniformitariansim in the larger view of geologists. You seem to believe the larger view. Am I right that you can explain this view? Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying uniformitarianism or the view the GC took millions of years to form because of nature is not science.

If not, then I'll assume all of this is agreeable to you, then we can move on. The same with what happened in the great state I live, the California coastline.

If you agree, then all of the things I said point to catastrophism. That is the creation scientists argument against what Lyell proposed. And it's there on their timeline.
There are some creationists who seem to view the break up of Pangaea as happening at the time of The Flood, it also seems there are some that believe it happened after The Flood. You are a creationist, I am asking you which you believe. I would like to sort these ideas regardless of whether I agree with the scientific reasoning behind them or not with a larger macro view of how it fits together. I want to see how the puzzle looks from at least one yec point of view.

You seem rather focused on the individual instances involved in each point of view. Discussing the science is certainly one way to get lost in the details. And answering generally that you view the events as a product of catastrophism does little to fully detail and answer. I would expect many points I can plug in myself with research as views are not really going to deviate too much. Obviously, you would have to believe that man and dinosaurs roamed the earth together. Obviously you would think that the grand Canyon was formed quickly, but when did the dinosaurs go extinct, when did the grand Canyon finish or forming, when did the wheel get invented? Surely catastrophism can answer some but not all of the events that I want to plug into this timeline. So while you have in a roundabout way answered some of the questions presented to you, some still sit unanswered.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
There are some creationists who seem to view the break up of Pangaea as happening at the time of The Flood, it also seems there are some that believe it happened after The Flood. You are a creationist, I am asking you which you believe. I would like to sort these ideas regardless of whether I agree with the scientific reasoning behind them or not with a larger macro view of how it fits together. I want to see how the puzzle looks from at least one yec point of view.

You seem rather focused on the individual instances involved in each point of view. Discussing the science is certainly one way to get lost in the details. And answering generally that you view the events as a product of catastrophism does little to fully detail and answer. I would expect many points I can plug in myself with research as views are not really going to deviate too much. Obviously, you would have to believe that man and dinosaurs roamed the earth together. Obviously you would think that the grand Canyon was formed quickly, but when did the dinosaurs go extinct, when did the grand Canyon finish or forming, when did the wheel get invented? Surely catastrophism can answer some but not all of the events that I want to plug into this timeline. So while you have in a roundabout way answered some of the questions presented to you, some still sit unanswered.

Before we get to Pangaea, I like you to at least "recognize" that uniformitarianism has acted like a bully since it seized power in the 1800s. It is the driving force of evolution today and does not recognize catastrophism unless it helps promote evolution. The atheist scientists have stolen ideas and theories presented by creation scientists. In other words, catastrophism is a valid theory using science. Otherwise, what I say will not lead you to think that the creation timeline is valid. Where Christianity and creationism comes in is that it supports catastrophism and not uniformitarianism. There is nothing in creation that took a million or billion years to form.

Now to Pangaea. I believe in a supercontinent. The evidence seems to fit that the continents broke apart as theorized by continental drift theory. Look at North and South America coastlines and Europe and Africa lines. The Bible does not disagree with it. For example, Genesis 1:9-10 states: “Then God said, ‘Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear;’ and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas.” The fundamental difference with evolutionists is how long it took to separate. The continents are still drifting apart slowly so evos using uniformitarian thinking assume that is the way it was in the past. GPS can tell us in inches how much they move.

However, we had undersea earthquakes and the continents separated and more water came up to cover the earth. Evos state that it started with a very enormous volcano. They love volcanoes as their grand cause. (I love volcanoes because they make money for me which I will keep secret.) Anyway, the geological evidence backs continental drift. Regarding the continental drift theory, the evos stole the theory of plate tectonics. They didn't believe Alfred Wegener back in the day, but now use his theory to explain why the continents are "slow-w-w-w-ly" drifting apart. To answer your question, it is theorized by creation scientists that Pangaea separated into today's continents and oceans during Noah's Flood.

More reading here
Can Catastrophic Plate Tectonics Explain Flood Geology?

All of the individual instances I named should get you to think they happened when?
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
The 4.6 billion year-old earth "fact" is constantly mentioned in news articles. I'm saying why mention it if it is a fact? We already know. That's what made me suspicious. Also, did you really mean "4 billion" years? Then I would say your "facts" are off (sarcasm).

Today's dinosaur news reporting tries to lead you to evolution of dinosaurs to birds. That isn't a fact, but after saying "birds are dinosaurs" enough times people will think it is a fact.

(The truth is there is no connection between birds and dinosaurs. It's trying to lead one to evolution and birds evolved from dinosaurs. Birds do not give live birth, so there is no connection.)

You really need to understand science a bit better. Any time you hear something like the Earth is approximately 4.6 billion years old it is based upon the evidence we currently possess and is subject to change should new evidence arise. True scientists won't claim that it is a FACT that the Earth is 4.6 billion years old, they will explain that to the best of our knowledge it is approximately that old. You REALLY shouldn't blame the news media's ignorance on science. As far as birds being dinosaurs that is a hypothesis that has been around for awhile but has not yet developed beyond that. Just because an uninformed media outlet reports that it is a FACT that birds evolved from dinosaurs just means the news media is wrong, not that science can't be trusted.
 
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