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Facts are in-Aryan Invasion Of Indus is a Lie!

Discussion in 'Hinduism DIR' started by Wannabe Yogi, May 31, 2012.

  1. Riverwolf

    Riverwolf Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
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    Don't know about those people, as I've never heard of them.

    However, the Puranas and Itahasas are not good for accurate history, since they contain things which are, to be honest, incorrect. The Vayu Purana, for example, actually contains a multiplication error. In addition, they have been interpolated several times. They have not been demonstrated to be accurate renditions of history any more than Biblical legends.

    Most unfortunate, indeed.

    Me, I prefer to take pride in my heritage rather than my birthland. :clover:

    I don't think such an assumption is as pervasive as it used to be.

    No, but such things can be studied.

    Not really sure I understand.

    I don't know, because I'm not familiar with the culture of early 1700s Europe.

    I can see a problem right away. It's actually a logical fallacy to assume that something must be correct simply because it's traditional.
     
  2. Wannabe Yogi

    Wannabe Yogi Well-Known Member

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    This is how I see it. Tell me if it makes sense to you.
    Entomologists studied a certain type of insect. All the scientists who studied this insect were male. They noticed the big males of the spices fought over the rights to mate with the females. It was always in there minds the biggest male always got the girl. But... when a female scientist started studying this species she noticed something that the male scientists did not see... sometimes the female of the species ran off while the males fought and mated with a different male. All the male scientists had an incomplete understanding of the mating habits of this bug. It took a female to complete the picture.

    My point is A Westerner will see the world a western way. It is an incomplete view point because all view points are incomplete. I sure a bunch of woman scientists would miss something a man could better see. This type of thing can't be helped.
     
  3. Riverwolf

    Riverwolf Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
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    I might argue that, but the analogy is true to an extent, since Europe and India developed over thousands of years to be culturally very different. However, the key here is that both the man and woman are looking at the same thing, but noticing different details.

    The equivalent here would be that both Indians and Westerners are looking at the archaeology, linguistics, comparative literature/religion, etc., and noticing different details. Both are certainly important. The thing is, Indian historians/linguists/etc. have looked at the evidence, and by and large drawn similar conclusions as their European counterparts. Those who haven't aren't looking at the same thing, but at something else: tradition. It's like the woman who isn't looking at the mating habits of the insect, but at what ancient people wrote about an insect that may or may not be the one they're supposed to study.
     
  4. Shuddhasattva

    Shuddhasattva Well-Known Member

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    Namaste

    The issue is that the evidence the Indian historians/linguistics/etc. are looking at is presented through a Western lens already, along with all the commentary and baggage. In learning these methodologies, they also learned and internalized the Western ideologies.

    This is changing now.

    Namaste
     
  5. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
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    Culture is similar because customs are picked up and shared much faster than language changes. Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, Mayalayam and their regional dialects are Dravidian languages, totally unrelated to Sanskrit. Malayalam, for example has borrowed some Sanskrit grammar and features, and is over 80% Sanskrit vocabulary in literature and scholarly works. But that is not the case in everyday speech. Therefore, a typical Malayalam-speaker would probably not be able to read a medical journal in its original form unless it was translated fully into Malayalam. I suspect the same is true for the other Dravidian languages, but I'd have to delve into it.
     
  6. Riverwolf

    Riverwolf Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
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    Yes it is, and thank the Gods for that.
     
  7. Satyamavejayanti

    Satyamavejayanti Well-Known Member

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    Wonder why

    yes that is the case, that is for us to fix, because Ithihas and Puranas can be changed to become more acceptable and it still has history in it, if we take the crap out of it, its understandable.
    I think the biggest problem was that Itihas and Puranas were looked at as Holy books rather then what they actually are.

    i take pride in all three, (Matrbhoomi) Motherland, (Janmbhoomi) Birthland and (Karmbhoomi) current land.


    That is the problem, it used to be the basis of study of culture and language in the early days of European exploration.

    yes it can be, but using what tools.

    hard for me to explain, forget i said it.


    Maybe these things can be studied.

    Only to non traditionalist.
     
  8. Satyamavejayanti

    Satyamavejayanti Well-Known Member

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    Yeh, I would agree.
     
  9. Satyamavejayanti

    Satyamavejayanti Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm, what is Dravidian?

    Even the concept of a Dravidian Race is not proved by genealogical research.

    its not a spoken language in North or South, that is more the case that it was made to be for scholarly works ect, rather then being a language of a specific race of people.
    This would also be supported by Upanishads and other works on the Vedas, where many state that Vedic Sanskrit was developed for Vedas and was not a spoken language coming from outside influences.

    I don't believe that there is a Dravidian Race of people, Indians have many dialects but the racial stock are related, Aryan and Dravidian words are doing what they were intended to do, divide North from South.
     
  10. ratikala

    ratikala Istha gosthi

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    dear prabhu ji ,

    Iam not sure that I would go as far as to say a lie , but the aryan invasion theory is indeed a rather missguided peice of fiction , which fortunately is now being dissproven .

    this highlights the danger of trying to find explanations for things , and trying to group people and put them in boxes .

    true wisdom would be to keep an open mind , as is now shown by many studies and scientific observations , that what was once concidered by some to be merely mythology is in fact a reflection of true history .

    I havent seen this particular link yet but so mush has come to light in the past 30 years that I hope people will look with interest at much of what was once concidered myth and gain a very different perspective on life and religion.
     
  11. ratikala

    ratikala Istha gosthi

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    dear prabhu ji ,

    jai jai


    perfect :bow:


    One positive thing to come of recent discoveries is that I have met many people who are begining to look differently at the whole question of beleif due to scientific and archiological descoveries over the past years .

    I am now waiting for the scientific and scolastic worlds to openly admit that many of their theories might be wrong and to look in wonder at the depth of knowledge and wisdom in the vedic literature .

    this period in recent history should be a lesson to us all in the dangers of the ego , and that any human being should take it upon himself to assert his own superiority above any other .

    may we return to a true understanding of dharma and be truely "arya"
     
  12. ratikala

    ratikala Istha gosthi

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    yes , yes , you are both right Bharatvarsha covered a far gerater area than what is now concidered to be the indian subcontinent ,

    luckily I think things are now changing
     
  13. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
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    Dravidian is a language super-family, that's all. It does not, when properly used, refer to any ethnic or social group of people. Nor is there a language called 'Dravidian' any more than there is a language called Sino-Tibetan or a language called Afro-Asiatic. They are language super-families.

    Dravidian is the name of a group of language families that have common descent from an ancestor language, called Proto-Dravidian. It is unrelated to other languages just as the Indo-European, Sino-Tibetan, Afro-Asiatic, Dene-Caucasian, Uto-Aztecan, Uralic, Austronesian languages are unrelated to each other. Dravidian languages are primarily spoken in the south of India, but one Dravidian language, Brahui, is spoken in Baluchistan.

    There is no Dravidian race. There are no races at all in humans. Race is a social construct. The human genome has been fully mapped, and there is no marker for race. So forget any arguments trying to prove or disprove racism based on outdated and obsolete western thought and ignorance.

    It is true that there is virtually no genetic difference between northern and southern Indians. That the languages are used to divide north and south is one of the most ridiculous claims ever made. They are different languages because they are different languages.

    Moreover, did you miss my post in which I said that Malayalam, a Dravidian language, totally unrelated to any languages except Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, and the other languages and dialects of south India, has adopted 80% of its scholarly and professional vocabulary from Sanskrit? That professional journals and literature are written with Malayalam grammar constructions, using Sanskrit vocabulary sound like an intended division?

    Meaning no disrespect, but please do not venture into linguistics.
     
  14. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
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    Yes, as I've said many times in the past, human migrations out of Africa took several routes. There was a north-western route into Europe; a north-eastern route into Eurasia; and a south-eastern route into south Asia. At that time, the Sahara and Arabian deserts were wetlands with rivers, lakes, (deep ones), marshes, and swamps. Only about 10,000 years ago did the area dry up and become the deserts of north Africa, southwest Asia and even to Rajasthan (Thar Desert). These migrations took place over a 100,000 - 150,000 year span. Humans reached south Asia by about 50,000 years ago, and Australasia by about 40,000 years ago.

    There's been no genetic influx into the Indian subcontinent from the north in over 100,000 years. Yes, some groups who took the "northeastern" route migrated over the whole Iranian plateau and into the north of the Indian subcontinent, but it was no invasion. They were people who migrated into an unpopulated and unsettled land where they developed the IVC and Vedic civilizations. The Vedic peoples are indeed indigenous to India. :yes:
     
  15. Riverwolf

    Riverwolf Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
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    But how are such things determined?

    Well, it's kinda hard for me to take pride in my brithland these days.

    But as it hasn't been for at least several decades, I don't see what the problem is.

    The ones that are tried and true. Why use ones that demonstrate false?

    Not as interesting as pre-Christian and pre-Rennaisance Europe. Can't take seriously those ridiculous wigs and hats.

    If I were to guess, however, I'd say it would heavily depend on whatever education was available at the time. One Christian is not necessarily like unto another.

    There have been many traditions over the years and around the world that needed to be thrown out because they demonstrated to be false. Therefore, something is not true solely on the merits of it being tradition. However, that doesn't mean all traditions must be discarded simply for being tradition.
     
    #115 Riverwolf, Jun 13, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2012
  16. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    "Race" has nothing whatsoever to do with language.
    Vedic Sanskrit probably existed when the Vedas were composed, not the other way round. It must have been language spoken by some people at least in some circumstances. Then there were colloquials. The Sanskrits got petrified, but the colloquial Prakrits evolved to Apabhraṃśa dialects which in turn changed to modern Indian languages like Hindi, Bengali etc.

    Thanks, Touch; you saved me a lot of typing.

    I made a note on the Indus-Sarasvati civilization when reading this thread but lost the details. Anyway, we don't know if that culture was inspired by any other or if it left any traces that can be seen later. The language will probably never be deciphered, as all the inscriptions are very short. Guesses that it was a Dravidian language are as many as advocates of an Indo-European heritage.

    The origin of the name Indo-European is quite simple: at the time it was coined, the easternmost languages in the family were found in India, and the westernmost ones in Europe. Purely geographical.
     
  17. Satyamavejayanti

    Satyamavejayanti Well-Known Member

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    Yes it is a language group, spoken primarily in the Southern Parts of India. Dravidian comes from the word Dasyus which is in the Vedas, who were described (by western historians) as flat nosed black aboriginal who originally inhabited India.
    The Languages they spoke were given a group called Dravidian.

    To me when people refer to Dravidian Language groups they are referring to the notion of the Dasyus Racial group as well.

    Even if you don't intend to view it as a racial thing, the Word Dravidian itself was designed to separate the southern Languages from the Northern.

    Im not questioning the Language itself, i trust you are more informed on the Language topic then i am.

    All im doing is questioning the intent of the classification.

    I don't see any racial difference, But the word Dravidian was and to some extent still is the cause of political and cultural divide among Indians.

    Correct, my case is against the intent and meaning of the word Dravidian itself.

    I did read it, and i agree, no argument there.

    Do you mean that the North and South division was already present prior to the Indologist hypothesis.

    Nooo, No hard feelings mate, learning heaps from you, you are well versed in the Linguistics side of things, im just coming from the Nationalist Hindu/Indian Pride question/disagree to anything and everything anyone says kinda side.

    :D
     
  18. Satyamavejayanti

    Satyamavejayanti Well-Known Member

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    When did i say it has?

    Wow, point taken.

    Yeh my bad, it was a spoken language before being written.
     
  19. Satyamavejayanti

    Satyamavejayanti Well-Known Member

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    According to principals set out in Vedas.


    People build on old theories and classifications, without thinking about what it meant.

    And how do we determine the tried and true tools?

    So we can safely infer that a Christian missionary from Uk during 1700ds, would have been more racially/Radically motivated, then today.

    Exactly, without research we cant say any traditional method is incorrect.
     
  20. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
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    And there we have it! :yes: If it weren't for Pāṇini who codified and standardized spoken Sanskrit into Classical Sanskrit, it would probably not exist as a living language. It would probably only exist as Vedic Sanskrit in the texts of the Vedas. Anglo-Saxon was never codified, and while it still exists fossilized in works such as Beowulf, no one speaks it. Well, they do but we call it English. :D

    And I got writer's cramp. :p

    Jai jai! :)
     
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