Fact, Belief, and Faith

[sayak83]

Please Stop, both of you, or get reported for thread derailment.

 

[Skwim]

Please Stop, both of you, or get reported for thread derailment.

Truthfully, when threads go this long, 60+ posts or so, it's not uncommon that the subject goes off topic. It's pretty much a sign the issue has run its course. So I don't care that others take it elsewhere. Enjoy yourselves.

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[Revoltingest]

Your attack of the science of evolution and the scientific method of falsification are very very suspicious of false representation of your beliefs. There others on this cite that have done the same thing. Denton did this as s a phony advocate of Intelligent Design.

Your phony use of bogus "evolution by chance," and your selective bogus attack on Popper's falsification smells rotten of Creationism.

Tell me if not the natural course of our physical existence and natural origin and evolution of life; 'What is your explanation of the evidence?'

Still waiting on topic . . .

This has been fun, but it's run its course.
I think our audience is no longer entertained (if they ever were).
So no more thread derailment, eh.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I think they approach religion with more rational considerations than do believers.

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I would say where bitterness and existential crisis replaces love, hope and faith . . . no.

 

[shunyadragon]

I would say where bitterness and existential crisis replaces love, hope and faith . . . no.

This is a heavily biased negative assertion from the personal perspective assuming that you know what others believe without any knowledge of the motivation of said beliefs.

The reality is from the perspective of most non-believers there is no crisis,

 

[BilliardsBall]

This is a heavily biased negative assertion from the personal perspective assuming that you know what others believe without any knowledge of the motivation of said beliefs.

The reality is from the perspective of most non-believers there is no crisis,

Shun,

I've personally witnessed to thousands of atheists. We talk--unlike forums and the trolls.

I have a heavily unbiased assertion, from a strong knowledge base, that atheists, in my opinion, are lost souls.

 

[shunyadragon]

Shun,

I've personally witnessed to thousands of atheists. We talk--unlike forums and the trolls.

I have a heavily unbiased assertion, from a strong knowledge base, that atheists, in my opinion, are lost souls.

Sorry unacceptable, but I too have been around atheists my whole life in close affiliation with Unitarian Universalists, and no this is an unwarranted generalization.

Simply poll the atheists on this site, and see what you find out from their perspective. You could also cite atheist literature from their perspective if you believe this is so.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Simply poll the atheists on this site, and see what you find out from their perspective.

We don't want what BilliardsBall is selling. That should tell him all he needs to know about atheists and how lost we feel.

If he ever converts one of us to Christianity, that will be the one that felt lost or incomplete without a god belief.

As for me, I'm perfectly fine without it.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Sorry unacceptable, but I too have been around atheists my whole life in close affiliation with Unitarian Universalists, and no this is an unwarranted generalization.

Simply poll the atheists on this site, and see what you find out from their perspective. You could also cite atheist literature from their perspective if you believe this is so.

I don't have to "poll" on this site, I've spoken to thousands of atheists in person.

Unitarian Universalists are college-educated, often college professor atheists, kind, gentle, liberal, giving. I'm talking about Internet trolls.

 

[Sapiens]

I don't have to "poll" on this site, I've spoken to thousands of atheists in person.

Unitarian Universalists are college-educated, often college professor atheists, kind, gentle, liberal, giving. I'm talking about Internet trolls.

Internet trolls come in all persuasions, there are those who might categorize you as such ... in the Christian persuasion. Just as you find atheists to be lost souls I find Christians to be misguided ritual cannibals. Tell me ... who has actual evidence that goes beyond personal opinion, you or me?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I don't have to "poll" on this site, I've spoken to thousands of atheists in person.

But you don't listen. You make the same errors repeatedly.

I've corrected you on a variety of points more than once. I just did again today in the post above. But it will have zero impact on you, won't it? You don't care about evidence. You just ignore it and repeat yourself.

That makes you the Internet troll, doesn't it - not the people you call by that name.

 

[Milton Platt]

Several definitions I put together tonight while bored and watching Frasier. ... (Put in the Science Religion forum because facts are the operational basis of science whereas faith is the operational basis of religion.)

Fact: A thing that is indisputably the case.

Fact is rooted in conviction that a thing is confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold acceptance* The core of science and day-to-day living.

​

Belief: The acceptance that a non-factual thing exists or is true.

An occasional encouragement in our day-to-day musings. It serves as the basis of faith.

​

Faith: Trust in a belief.

For some, the balm of everyday concerns. Most notably, the trust put in the supernatural and some religious writings. For others, it's simply the confidence that the other guy at the intersection isn't going to T-bone you as you proceed.​

Okay, it's bedtime, any deletions, revisions, or ?



* With a nod to Stephen Jay Gould

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I've been all cash for awhile. Missed some of the upside and all of the downside.

 

[osgart]

Fact is an undeniable reality.

Belief is to accept something as true.

Faith is to place confidence in , to trust as so.

I believe in a fact. I have come to have faith that the fact works.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Internet trolls come in all persuasions, there are those who might categorize you as such ... in the Christian persuasion. Just as you find atheists to be lost souls I find Christians to be misguided ritual cannibals. Tell me ... who has actual evidence that goes beyond personal opinion, you or me?

You have dozens of documents that verify the philosophy you keep pushing on the forums? Tell me more.

 

[BilliardsBall]

But you don't listen. You make the same errors repeatedly.

I've corrected you on a variety of points more than once. I just did again today in the post above. But it will have zero impact on you, won't it? You don't care about evidence. You just ignore it and repeat yourself.

That makes you the Internet troll, doesn't it - not the people you call by that name.

I do listen to open-minded atheists, not so much Internet trolls, that is correct.

Who made it your job to correct me, by the way, since "I'll never learn" as you wrote.

 

[Sapiens]

You have dozens of documents that verify the philosophy you keep pushing on the forums? Tell me more.

Answer the question rather than trying to avoid it with such a clumsy and obvious riposte.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I do listen to open-minded atheists, not so much Internet trolls, that is correct.

The troll is the angry one sniping at others. Your contempt for atheists is transparent.

No problem.

Regarding open-mindedness, of the two of us, I am the open-mided one, because I'm the one who is willing and able to evaluate a claim and the supporting evidence and argument dispassionately and with the ability to recognize a sound argument and the willingness to be convinced by it. I can't recall any evidence or arguments from you ever - just unsupported claims.such as that atheists typically lead bitter and empty lives.

You're the faith based thinker, which is the very definition of close-mindedness. The closed mind is impervious to evidence. Let me share some examples of closed-mindedness with you, and you'll see what I mean:

This is from William Lane Craig, often vaunted as the intellectual voice of Christianity:

"The way in which I know Christianity is true is first and foremost on the basis of the witness of the Holy Spirit in my heart. And this gives me a self-authenticating means of knowing Christianity is true wholly apart from the evidence. And therefore, even if in some historically contingent circumstances the evidence that I have available to me should turn against Christianity, I do not think that this controverts the witness of the Holy Spirit. In such a situation, I should regard that as simply a result of the contingent circumstances that I'm in, and that if I were to pursue this with due diligence and with time, I would discover that the evidence, if in fact I could get the correct picture, would support exactly what the witness of the Holy Spirit tells me. So I think that's very important to get the relationship between faith and reason right..."​

He's telling you outright that no evidence could change his mind about that which he has accepted on faith. That's what closed-minded means.

Here's another from another prominent Christian with a widely read website, Ken Ham:

The moderator in the debate between Bill Nye and Ken Ham on whether creationism is a viable scientific field of study asked, "What would change your minds?" Scientist Bill Nye answered, "Evidence." Young Earth Creationist Ken Ham answered, "Nothing. I'm a Christian." That was refreshingly honest.

Elsewhere, Ham stated, “By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record."
​

That's another faith based thinker proudly announcing that his mind is closed for business - permanently.

How about this for closed-mindedness?

“If somewhere in the Bible I were to find a passage that said 2 + 2 = 5, I wouldn't question what I am reading in the Bible. I would believe it, accept it as true, and do my best to work it out and understand it."- Pastor Peter laRuffa​

These people are proud of their closed-mindedness. They seem to think it's a virtue.

This is what an open mind looks like from a man who first describes what a closed mind looks like:

"We're not two sides of the same coin, and you don't get to put your unreason up on the same shelf with my reason. Your stuff has to go over there, on the shelf with Zeus and Thor and the Kraken, with the stuff that is not evidence-based, stuff that religious people never change their mind about, no matter what happens ... I'm open to anything for which there's evidence. Show me a god, and I will believe in him. If Jesus Christ comes down from the sky during the halftime show of this Sunday's Super Bowl and turns all the nachos into loaves and fishes, well, I'll think ... "Oh, look at that. I was wrong. There he is. My bad. Praise the Lord."​

 

[BilliardsBall]

The troll is the angry one sniping at others. Your contempt for atheists is transparent.

No problem.

Regarding open-mindedness, of the two of us, I am the open-mided one, because I'm the one who is willing and able to evaluate a claim and the supporting evidence and argument dispassionately and with the ability to recognize a sound argument and the willingness to be convinced by it. I can't recall any evidence or arguments from you ever - just unsupported claims.such as that atheists typically lead bitter and empty lives.

You're the faith based thinker, which is the very definition of close-mindedness. The closed mind is impervious to evidence. Let me share some examples of closed-mindedness with you, and you'll see what I mean:

This is from William Lane Craig, often vaunted as the intellectual voice of Christianity:

"The way in which I know Christianity is true is first and foremost on the basis of the witness of the Holy Spirit in my heart. And this gives me a self-authenticating means of knowing Christianity is true wholly apart from the evidence. And therefore, even if in some historically contingent circumstances the evidence that I have available to me should turn against Christianity, I do not think that this controverts the witness of the Holy Spirit. In such a situation, I should regard that as simply a result of the contingent circumstances that I'm in, and that if I were to pursue this with due diligence and with time, I would discover that the evidence, if in fact I could get the correct picture, would support exactly what the witness of the Holy Spirit tells me. So I think that's very important to get the relationship between faith and reason right..."​

He's telling you outright that no evidence could change his mind about that which he has accepted on faith. That's what closed-minded means.

Here's another from another prominent Christian with a widely read website, Ken Ham:

The moderator in the debate between Bill Nye and Ken Ham on whether creationism is a viable scientific field of study asked, "What would change your minds?" Scientist Bill Nye answered, "Evidence." Young Earth Creationist Ken Ham answered, "Nothing. I'm a Christian." That was refreshingly honest.

Elsewhere, Ham stated, “By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record."
​

That's another faith based thinker proudly announcing that his mind is closed for business - permanently.

How about this for closed-mindedness?

“If somewhere in the Bible I were to find a passage that said 2 + 2 = 5, I wouldn't question what I am reading in the Bible. I would believe it, accept it as true, and do my best to work it out and understand it."- Pastor Peter laRuffa​

These people are proud of their closed-mindedness. They seem to think it's a virtue.

This is what an open mind looks like from a man who first describes what a closed mind looks like:

"We're not two sides of the same coin, and you don't get to put your unreason up on the same shelf with my reason. Your stuff has to go over there, on the shelf with Zeus and Thor and the Kraken, with the stuff that is not evidence-based, stuff that religious people never change their mind about, no matter what happens ... I'm open to anything for which there's evidence. Show me a god, and I will believe in him. If Jesus Christ comes down from the sky during the halftime show of this Sunday's Super Bowl and turns all the nachos into loaves and fishes, well, I'll think ... "Oh, look at that. I was wrong. There he is. My bad. Praise the Lord."​

I would say the precise definition of closed-mindedness includes:

1) quoting other men then telling me I believe as they do
2) not listening to me where I've contradicted these quotations
3) quoting people out of context to begin with

 

[BilliardsBall]

Answer the question rather than trying to avoid it with such a clumsy and obvious riposte.

But you ARE giving us philosophy and no facts. For example, when you assert you have proven a universal negative (no God anywhere in this universe's spacetime). That's a philosophical, not factual, assertion.

 

[Sapiens]

But you ARE giving us philosophy and no facts. For example, when you assert you have proven a universal negative (no God anywhere in this universe's spacetime). That's a philosophical, not factual, assertion.

Except for the problem that here too you are making it up as you go, what some would call lying. I never, and would never, say what you claim. Rather, I would say that there is no rational evidence that supports the existence of a god, and that every god concept held by humans has been sufficiently falsified to make the probability of a god so small that it approaches zero, thus theists must in the final analysis, rely on some form of fractured logic to make an illogical jump of faith that they then must defend.