Eye of the Beholder series: "Will the real worship please stand up?"

[firedragon]

It doesn't. That is why they are odd ducks in the Qur'an.

They are just there, doing their best to try and make sense against a background that does not acknowledge their existence nor cooperates with their nominal message in any way.

One ends up wondering if there is an Errata available, and what it will say about those seven verses.

Above you said a few things.

1. A very large percentage of the Qur'an deals specifically with the spelling out of how Muslims are supposed to treat each other

2. and, perhaps even more significantly, how they are supposed to deal with non-Muslims

3. down to specific forbiddances to intermarriage and differing tax requirements

So point by point can you give simple Quranic references as evidence to each of these?

 

[firedragon]

Is a Kafir some who lies, or someone who disbelieves, or both?

Those are two entirely different things... but not in Quranic usage. Much as idolatry, paganism, atheism and "evil beliefs" are not really distinguished either.

You keep mentioning a lot of things at every juncture.

So now tell me. How do you understand idolatry according to the Quran? Are they also non-muslims? So how does as you very well know idolators or the Mushrikeena are definitely, beyond doubt, according to the Quran, non-muslims and how are they to be treated in some manner purely because they are non-muslims.

 

[firedragon]

Righteousness (moral competence) and belief are generally fairly unrelated things.

Which righteousness are you speaking about?

1. Al Bir?
2. Islaha
3. Taqiya

Which one?

 

[firedragon]

They are the odd ducks of the Qur'an, saying things that are directly contradicted by the book as a whole.

Okay. I get your point.

So now can you quote the "Quran as a whole" that is contradicting 2:256 and chapter 109?

Please dont cut and paste lists of cherry picked verses or provide links to cherry picked verses because thats not scholarship. Also, since you have substance, dont ignore the previous points and questions i made upon your own admissions.

Peace.

 

[LuisDantas]

Reference is the Quran. I have already given the references.

Or are you looking for some other people who have written on this? Is that what you are looking for when you say "references" and others who did legwork?

I just don't see why I would need to thread upon such a beaten path, when, as you quite correctly point out, there are perfectly workable analysis out there.

Why do you ask when the answer is well known by both of us?

 

[LuisDantas]

Which righteousness are you speaking about?

1. Al Bir?
2. Islaha
3. Taqiya

Which one?

Moral competence, as I pointed out.

A positive thing. Not Taqiya, which is at best a sometimes necessary evil and should not exist at all.

I am not certain of what the first two choices that you propose actually mean.

What I meant is an actual moral and religious virtue, that of sincerely aiming to do the proper thing at every available opportunity and accepting to pay the necessary prices.

That is, to say the least, not at all the same thing as belief in the existence of God.

 

[LuisDantas]

Okay. I get your point.

So now can you quote the "Quran as a whole" that is contradicting 2:256 and chapter 109?

Ahhah. Sure. Do you have a week or so available?

I actually don't, but you get the point.

Please dont cut and paste lists of cherry picked verses or provide links to cherry picked verses because thats not scholarship. Also, since you have substance, dont ignore the previous points and questions i made upon your own admissions.

Peace.

Sorry, but my time is not that ample.

I guess that it is my turn to ask you to read the Qur'an with a honest intent. That ought to be plenty enough for our purposes.

 

[LuisDantas]

You keep mentioning a lot of things at every juncture.

So I do. To an extent that is me adjusting my language to the expectations and strengths of my audience.

So now tell me. How do you understand idolatry according to the Quran?

According to the Qur'an idolatry is an uholy melange of otherwise mutually exclusive concepts and stances. Pretty much anything that isn't monotheism, that can't be reconciled with monotheism, is fair game to be called idolatry. Paganism, idolatry proper, atheism, disbelief... all are called idolatry, sometimes in the same verse even.

It is a rather fantastic concept, straight out of some Narnia-like realm.

Are they also non-muslims?

Kafirs, you mean?

So how does as you very well know idolators or the Mushrikeena are definitely, beyond doubt, according to the Quran, non-muslims and how are they to be treated in some manner purely because they are non-muslims.

Is that even a question?

 

[firedragon]

I just don't see why I would need to thread upon such a beaten path, when, as you quite correctly point out, there are perfectly workable analysis out there.

Why do you ask when the answer is well known by both of us?

Bro. You could be specific.

If you want my answer, i will ask you to read books of scholars like Fine Tuning by Ibn Hajar al Asqalani. And if you ask me i will tell you to read the Quran and understand the language in depth.

So we are definitely not having the same answer. Unless you have done them both.

So again, one could be specific.

 

[firedragon]

According to the Qur'an idolatry is an uholy melange of otherwise mutually exclusive concepts and stances. Pretty much anything that isn't monotheism, that can't be reconciled with monotheism, is fair game to be called idolatry. Paganism, idolatry proper, atheism, disbelief... all are called idolatry, sometimes in the same verse even.

You are wrong.

Kafirs, you mean?

No. I meant non-muslim.

Is that even a question?

Yep. thats a question.

"So how does as you very well know idolators or the Mushrikeena are definitely, beyond doubt, according to the Quran, non-muslims and how are they to be treated in some manner purely because they are non-muslims."

 

[firedragon]

Ahhah. Sure. Do you have a week or so available?

I actually don't, but you get the point.

I get the point. If thats the case, please let's not make vague claims one could not substantiate.

Sorry, but my time is not that ample.

I guess that it is my turn to ask you to read the Qur'an with a honest intent. That ought to be plenty enough for our purposes.

Thats ad hominem.

 

[firedragon]

Moral competence, as I pointed out.

A positive thing. Not Taqiya, which is at best a sometimes necessary evil and should not exist at all.

I am not certain of what the first two choices that you propose actually mean.

What I meant is an actual moral and religious virtue, that of sincerely aiming to do the proper thing at every available opportunity and accepting to pay the necessary prices.

That is, to say the least, not at all the same thing as belief in the existence of God.

Well. What you are saying is wrong. The Quran uses arabic. So when you say righteous, you have to know what arabic word you are referring to because it varies.

So which one are you speaking about in your argument? I ask because you said you have a working knowledge in the Quran.

Is it Islaha? Is it Al Bir or is it Taqiya? Which one are you referring to?

 

[sojourner]

This thread attempts to compile a representative sample of the various takes on the meaning of the word "worship", with an emphasis on practical questions such as whether it is possible for people to be worshipping something without realizing it; whether it is possible to determine what is a proper object of worship, and by which criteria; and whether the word has any form of objective meaning at all.

I will start by pointing out that, in my opinion, "worship" is awfully hard to define in any objective way. Most of the time it is probably fair to allow people to declare themselves worshippers without making the judgement from the outside.

What that worship entails, though, is almost entirely arbitrary. It often involves some form of reverence or contemplation, but that is just a general trend.

What do you think?

The word "worship" comes from two Anglo-Saxon root words: "wor" and "ship." The second root word means "shape." So, first off, worship is a shape of events laid out in time. The first root, "wor" comes from the root word werden, which is a state-of-being verb, meaning "to be," or "to become." So, worship is a shape of events in which something becomes, or in which creation or creativity happens. In Christian worship, it's a shape of events in which God creates with us and transforms us.

The German word for "worship" is Gottesdienst, meaning, literally, "the service of God." It's a time set aside for us to serve God through the acts we carry out. There are various examples in the bible of serving God through acts of worship.

The Greek term (used in the bible) is leiturgia. It comes from two root words: laos and ergon. Laos means "people," and ergon means "work." So leiturgia is "the work of the people" (in serving, offering to God and asking of God). In worship we acclaim, consecrate, give thanks, and voice supplications. We ask, we open ourselves, we allow in, and we receive.

 

[sojourner]

Worship is best as a personal thing. A private matter.

Unless you're a Christian. Then, worship is impossible out of the context of the public faith community.

 

[LuisDantas]

The word "worship" comes from two Anglo-Saxon root words: "wor" and "ship." The second root word means "shape." So, first off, worship is a shape of events laid out in time. The first root, "wor" comes from the root word werden, which is a state-of-being verb, meaning "to be," or "to become." So, worship is a shape of events in which something becomes, or in which creation or creativity happens. In Christian worship, it's a shape of events in which God creates with us and transforms us.

I got the sense that it might mean something in the general vicinity of "commitment" or perhaps "dedication". Would that be somewhat accurate?

 

[sojourner]

I got the sense that it might mean something in the general vicinity of "commitment" or perhaps "dedication". Would that be somewhat accurate?

Those would both be acts that are carried out in the context of worship. But worship is more than just either commitment or dedication. I'm committed to my wife and dedicated to her, but I don't worship her.

 

[paarsurrey]

It is for this that I say that a natural word translated in another language is never alternative of the original. It is accurate to some extant or near to it but never does convey the exact meaning, for obvious reasons. Since we discuss in English, that is why I gave the etymology of the natural word "worship" from English. It does have some good points in it. Right, please?

Perhaps. It may have flown over my head.

"worship"

Further to my post #52, generally the word "worship", its comparable word in Arabic is "Ibadah or Ibadat" from the triliteral root ʿayn bā dāl (ع ب د).

To broaden one view on the natural English word "worship" or its comparable natural word "Ibadah/Ibadat" , one may like to see its usage and meaning from the " Dictionary of The Holy Quran ":
Page 547-548
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Dictionary-Quran.pdf
and also from:
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Quran Dictionary
and also from:
Qur'an Wiki - Learn, Study and Reflect
For reference of Quran Verses and their 50+ translations (rendered by Muslims and also by Non-Muslims) one could access, with just putting verse # like 1:2 in its search engine:
al-Fatihah 1:1
Right, please?

Regards

 

[LuisDantas]

Really, the amount of time that even Muslims spend attempt to make sense of the Qur'an is absolutely enormous.

 

[paarsurrey]

Really, the amount of time that even Muslims spend attempt to make sense of the Qur'an is absolutely enormous.

I said that to understand nature/universe- the Work of G-d, a lot of effort has to be made to explore and investigate into it and its systems. Similarly, to explore and investigate into the systems of Quran- the secure and pristine Word of G-d, if no less effort would be required that is desirable and reasonable. Right, please?

Regards

 

[LuisDantas]

I said that to understand nature/universe- the Work of G-d, a lot of effort has to be made to explore and investigate into it and its systems. Similarly, to explore and investigate into the systems of Quran- the secure and pristine Word of G-d, if no less effort would be required that is desirable and reasonable. Right, please?

Regards

I just don't know how to answer that.

It is simply far too obvious to me that the Qur'an is by no means the word of the hypothetical creator of existence.

Whoever wrote the Qur'an simply did not put a lot of wisdom in there, either.

Therefore, you are asking me how to deal with a text that is entirely fictional - and is not even a part of my fiction.