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Extreme old age and the morality of end-of-life

GardenLady

Active Member
My parents are 93 and 99. I have come to the conclusion that lying to them is not immoral--if it gives them peace in their last years rather than worrying or battling through, I think that's okay. I may end up paing some bills for extra services that my Dad doesn't want to pay for, and not telling him, to ensure he gets what he needs.

Looking at their lives--a smaller world, disabilities, limitations, dependency, $180K/year for assisted living for two--I don't want to live that way. I said to my husband, "When I'm 90, buy me a case of champagne and put me out to sea on an ice floe." But I was raised to believe that suicide is morally wrong. On the other hand, I suppose declining medical treatment is perhaps more permissible--saying, for example, I'm not taking meds anymore, etc.

Perhaps I'm just exhausted as the local "child" who just spent another several hours this evening at at ER with one of them. But I find myself contemplating the morality of end-of-life choices. And I don't think that extending life when quality of life is gone is a good choice.

I'd be interested in hearing from others on this, especially those who have been in the caregiver role for very elderly parents.
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
I can only speak of what I would want toward the end of my life.

First, I would be disappointed to find my daughter had been lying to me. Our relationship is built on honesty and trust, and it would probably crush me to know she had set that aside to made decisions for me without first speaking to me about them, especially when it comes to decisions that could impact her financial future.

Also, she is already abundantly aware that I don't want my life extended artificially.

Finally, she and I will come to a consensus on what I need. What she thinks I need and what I actually need could potentially be two different things.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
My parents are 93 and 99. I have come to the conclusion that lying to them is not immoral--if it gives them peace in their last years rather than worrying or battling through, I think that's okay. I may end up paing some bills for extra services that my Dad doesn't want to pay for, and not telling him, to ensure he gets what he needs.

Looking at their lives--a smaller world, disabilities, limitations, dependency, $180K/year for assisted living for two--I don't want to live that way. I said to my husband, "When I'm 90, buy me a case of champagne and put me out to sea on an ice floe." But I was raised to believe that suicide is morally wrong. On the other hand, I suppose declining medical treatment is perhaps more permissible--saying, for example, I'm not taking meds anymore, etc.

Perhaps I'm just exhausted as the local "child" who just spent another several hours this evening at at ER with one of them. But I find myself contemplating the morality of end-of-life choices. And I don't think that extending life when quality of life is gone is a good choice.

I'd be interested in hearing from others on this, especially those who have been in the caregiver role for very elderly parents.
I think lying is always wrong, but I don't think not telling all is same as lying. And maybe it is not always necessary to say all.

But, it is interesting question, is modern medicine good, or would it be better to let people die naturally. I think it may be better not to try to extent life desperately.
 

Pete in Panama

Active Member
My parents are 93 and 99. I have come to the conclusion that lying to them is not immoral--if it gives them peace in their last years rather than worrying or battling through, I think that's okay. I may end up paing some bills for extra services that my Dad doesn't want to pay for, and not telling him, to ensure he gets what he needs.

Looking at their lives--a smaller world, disabilities, limitations, dependency, $180K/year for assisted living for two--I don't want to live that way. I said to my husband, "When I'm 90, buy me a case of champagne and put me out to sea on an ice floe." But I was raised to believe that suicide is morally wrong. On the other hand, I suppose declining medical treatment is perhaps more permissible--saying, for example, I'm not taking meds anymore, etc.

Perhaps I'm just exhausted as the local "child" who just spent another several hours this evening at at ER with one of them. But I find myself contemplating the morality of end-of-life choices. And I don't think that extending life when quality of life is gone is a good choice.

I'd be interested in hearing from others on this, especially those who have been in the caregiver role for very elderly parents.
Your post left out so much that what I'm getting is that your folks are hit w/ diminished capacity for their condition & u are too because of them. My guess is that you'd do well to get a good meal, a good night's sleep, and someone to talk to --a counselor, priest, rabbi, whatever but some other voice to help u think about particulars.

Your folks are damn lucky to be blessed w/ such a long life, my guess is that they know it and are anxious to move on yet they respect the sanctity of life. I may be wrong.
 

GardenLady

Active Member
I'm absolutely not convinced it's "damn lucky" to live so long. Yes, they have lived to see their grandchildren grow up and to see 2 great-grandchildren. But the last several years have been very tough for them and for me.

Pete in Panama, I did not go into a lot of detail, but here's a short version: My mother has been in a wheelchair for 12 years because of a stroke and cannot walk even one step or use her right hand/arm. In the past year she has developed greater word retrieval issues and has had a couple of seizures. But she is sweet and easy to be with for the most part, though now that I'm 68, doing wheelchair-to-car transfers with a gait belt is getting harder for me. My dad's vision, hearing, balance, and gait are very poor. This past week, my dad was asking how close the train goes to his doctor's office because it's too far from the airport--this is the second time he thought we'd have to go to out of town to see his doctor, but his doctor's office is less than 2 miles from their place in Maryland. Dad is adamantly refusing to pay part of his assisted living bill saying he is "independent" (which is manifestly not the case) and putting his status at assisted living at risk (and hence, my mother's status, too) and has been belligerent with family and staff. So the "consensus" described by SalixIncendium isn't to be had.

This is way beyond a meal and a good night's sleep. I don't think I've slept entirely through the night more that a half dozen times in the last few months. But yes, I do have a therapist.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
My parents are 93 and 99. I have come to the conclusion that lying to them is not immoral--if it gives them peace in their last years rather than worrying or battling through, I think that's okay. I may end up paing some bills for extra services that my Dad doesn't want to pay for, and not telling him, to ensure he gets what he needs.

Looking at their lives--a smaller world, disabilities, limitations, dependency, $180K/year for assisted living for two--I don't want to live that way. I said to my husband, "When I'm 90, buy me a case of champagne and put me out to sea on an ice floe." But I was raised to believe that suicide is morally wrong. On the other hand, I suppose declining medical treatment is perhaps more permissible--saying, for example, I'm not taking meds anymore, etc.

Perhaps I'm just exhausted as the local "child" who just spent another several hours this evening at at ER with one of them. But I find myself contemplating the morality of end-of-life choices. And I don't think that extending life when quality of life is gone is a good choice.

I'd be interested in hearing from others on this, especially those who have been in the caregiver role for very elderly parents.

I suspect it would have to be considered on an individual basis. I don't know if I reach 100 where I'll be, whether I'm ready to let go of living or not.

I'd prefer my kids not lie to me but I suppose I'd understand if they did. No need for me to believe in happy endings.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm absolutely not convinced it's "damn lucky" to live so long. Yes, they have lived to see their grandchildren grow up and to see 2 great-grandchildren. But the last several years have been very tough for them and for me.

Pete in Panama, I did not go into a lot of detail, but here's a short version: My mother has been in a wheelchair for 12 years because of a stroke and cannot walk even one step or use her right hand/arm. In the past year she has developed greater word retrieval issues and has had a couple of seizures. But she is sweet and easy to be with for the most part, though now that I'm 68, doing wheelchair-to-car transfers with a gait belt is getting harder for me. My dad's vision, hearing, balance, and gait are very poor. This past week, my dad was asking how close the train goes to his doctor's office because it's too far from the airport--this is the second time he thought we'd have to go to out of town to see his doctor, but his doctor's office is less than 2 miles from their place in Maryland. Dad is adamantly refusing to pay part of his assisted living bill saying he is "independent" (which is manifestly not the case) and putting his status at assisted living at risk (and hence, my mother's status, too) and has been belligerent with family and staff. So the "consensus" described by SalixIncendium isn't to be had.

This is way beyond a meal and a good night's sleep. I don't think I've slept entirely through the night more that a half dozen times in the last few months. But yes, I do have a therapist.

I empathize with you. These sorts of situations are not easy. As people age they begin to cognitively and medically decline but you still want to respect their autonomy as much as safely and realistically possible. It's a difficult tightrope to walk.

Personally I don't think that, for example, paying for enhanced in home care without telling them is "wrong" per se. If you feel like mentally they are beyond reason at this point, it makes some sense. On the other hand, if it's a case of catching your dad in a better mood, perhaps you can explain the situation when he's in a more receptive state of mind.

It also makes me wonder if they know how much stress you're under. If you can communicate that without blaming, perhaps they would realize you need support and would be more open to extra help.

Just thoughts, don't know if they're helpful. My heart certainly goes out to you. :blueheart:
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I have the utmost sympathy for all who care for their elderly relatives, given it often or usually isn't a pleasant task or that easy all too often either. Those who still have their mental faculties are perhaps the easiest to care for and where any care is seen as such by them. But for the elderly who succumb to dementia (or similar), and who will probably stress their carers more than most, I would try to make their lives as comfortable as possible - lies or not. I think it all depends as to how much one can get through to them, and hence is usually just a judgmental issue as to how whatever we do affects them - as to being positive or negative. And the simple fact is that we usually don't get to rehearse this.

My father died shortly after a cancer diagnosis and in reasonable mental health (at 88), whereas my mother had the obvious signs of dementia for several years, and although I managed to look after her myself for many years - with the aid of carers - the last few years of her life were spent in care homes when I simply couldn't cope myself. I'm pretty certain she would have preferred to have ended her life (at 84) before this last stage, and seemingly just gave up her life rather than continue in such agony.
 
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Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
My advice would be to ask your parents if they want to keep living, or if they'd rather stop taking all meds and/or treatment and die more naturally.

I was a caregiver for both my elderly parents, who passed away in 2016 and 2019. My mom had vascular dementia. I could not reason with her and eventually realized that she wasn't thinking logically. I just didn't tell her everything I was doing, and I NEVER argued with her or even really tried to reason with her after her diagnosis.

In both their cases, they went under hospice care and they were kept comfortable and clean but we decided not to treat their various diseases. This was without their consent in both cases, because they were too sick to make legal decisions. Thankfully they both had clear medical directives and POAs in place before hand
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I'm lucky with my parents who are in their 70s, dad is still working his farm, mom is still up to the farmers wife role she's played for the last 50 years. Both have decided that should either become incapable and loosing their facilities the other takes them to Dignitas in Switzerland where the sufferer will get all the help they need in dying peacefully.

They have asked that i do the same for the remaining parent. This frightens the life out of me, basically giving me the power of life and death. But i think I'd know when the time comes.

Hubby and i have chosen the same route.
 
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Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Death with dignity was always something I favored conceptually. When it became relevant in my direct experience, favoring it went beyond being merely conceptual. There are a handful of states that permit medically-assisted euthanasia. There is a lot of red tape to battle through in order to secure it, but the option is there. It should be there for everyone. This is one of the few areas where we give more dignity to non-human persons than human persons; we let kitty and puppy have death with dignity, but not beloved moms and dads who have told us they do not want artificial extension of life while they were lucid and are suffering needlessly. It's... the word "stupid" doesn't really cover the travesty, nor does the word "travesty."

But this is inherently a very personal thing. Follow what your ways advise and your heart calls for.
 

GardenLady

Active Member
It also makes me wonder if they know how much stress you're under. If you can communicate that without blaming, perhaps they would realize you need support and would be more open to extra help.
They are in an assisted living facility. They (mainly Dad) still call on me for errands, printing info on checks for him to sign, taking them to medical appts. I'm the one who gets the call from the AL if anything happens (mom has a skin tear, dad fell), and I'm the one who sits in the ER or hospital. My siblings all live in other states, but I'm calling on the closer ones (e.g., two hours away) to participate more.

The more I think and write and talk with the therapist about this, it really comes down to Dad being the more difficult and demanding. Mom needs lots of help (and gets it at AL) but is so reasonable and easy to deal with.
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
This past week, my dad was asking how close the train goes to his doctor's office because it's too far from the airport--this is the second time he thought we'd have to go to out of town to see his doctor, but his doctor's office is less than 2 miles from their place in Maryland. Dad is adamantly refusing to pay part of his assisted living bill saying he is "independent" (which is manifestly not the case) and putting his status at assisted living at risk (and hence, my mother's status, too) and has been belligerent with family and staff.
Do you have a living will and/or power of attorney? From this, it doesn't exactly seem that he can make informed decisions for himself.

That said, regarding his care and expenses, I would default to his previous wishes when he was completely lucid.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
My parents are 93 and 99. I have come to the conclusion that lying to them is not immoral--if it gives them peace in their last years rather than worrying or battling through, I think that's okay. I may end up paing some bills for extra services that my Dad doesn't want to pay for, and not telling him, to ensure he gets what he needs.

Looking at their lives--a smaller world, disabilities, limitations, dependency, $180K/year for assisted living for two--I don't want to live that way. I said to my husband, "When I'm 90, buy me a case of champagne and put me out to sea on an ice floe." But I was raised to believe that suicide is morally wrong. On the other hand, I suppose declining medical treatment is perhaps more permissible--saying, for example, I'm not taking meds anymore, etc.

Perhaps I'm just exhausted as the local "child" who just spent another several hours this evening at at ER with one of them. But I find myself contemplating the morality of end-of-life choices. And I don't think that extending life when quality of life is gone is a good choice.

I'd be interested in hearing from others on this, especially those who have been in the caregiver role for very elderly parents.
I read that if you just stop eating and drinking, you will go into a coma and die. It doesn't take but less than a week to die supposedly. I do not want to live in a debilitated state. Put me out. After a while we just don't have any life left in us even though we still are breathing on earth.
 

JustGeorge

Not As Much Fun As I Look
Staff member
Premium Member
As to what I'd want to have my loved ones do with myself, that would vary on my mental state.

I know a person who's beloved father went through dementia over the span of his last decade. He no longer knew his children or grandchildren. Reluctantly, the kids stopped visiting, and he didn't seem to know any better. The one thing he was aware of, though, was his diet Pepsi. It wasn't in his approved 'diet' in the care facility, but each day one of the kids would call up there to see that he got at least one per day.

I told a close friend recently that, if my mind goes, and I don't know who anyone is, just see that I'm comfortable. No one has to visit me out of obligation if I no longer know them, and they shouldn't feel bad about stopping doing so. But, make sure I get my 'Pepsi', or whatever simple pleasure it is that I illogically cling to. In this case, I'd say lie to me.

However, if I was still mostly aware of my situations, I'd want to know the truth. Perhaps, don't tell me every last detail, don't burden me, but please don't lie to me.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I'd be interested in hearing from others on this, especially those who have been in the caregiver role for very elderly parents.
My father died of a heart attack at age 52 but my mother lived to be 93. My mother was only in a convalescent center once for a couple of weeks after a fall, but she refused to stay there so she went back to her rented condo. My mother had serious heart disease and was on many medications, she even had open-heart surgery at age 84, but she was a fighter. I tried to get my mother to come and live with my husband and I towards the end of her life, and she agreed, but sadly, she died in the hospital a few weeks later.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I read that if you just stop eating and drinking, you will go into a coma and die.
I think that is what happened to my husband last year. They say he died of cancer but I think he died of starvation. No cancer spreads that fast, especially not the kind he had. My husband did not want to live so he just stopped eating, and the hospital staff did not make him eat. The psychiatrist declared him decisional so I could not override his decision even with power of attorney and get him to accept a feeding tube.

One of the doctors who was tending him in the hospital tried to save his life but my husband refused the feeding tube. That doctor also looked back at all the medical records and he said he thinks there was medical negligence, so I should ask Kaiser for an internal investigation and also file a lawsuit. I am in the process of asking for an internal investigation to find out what actually caused his death and how the cancer could have spread that fast. Luckliy, I insisted on an autopsy, which is no longer routine in cases of cancer, but that doctor was happy to sign off on it. I have contacted a few law firms and they said I had a case, although they were too busy to take the case, but they recommended I keep looking for an attorney.
 
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