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Experimental thoughts on morality

Discussion in 'Ethics and Morals' started by AT-AT, May 25, 2019.

  1. AT-AT

    AT-AT Well-Known Member

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    I finally figured out what direction I should go, when I studied the revelations of the Baha'i faith
    I've been having some thoughts that I've been experimenting with:

    Situation 1: I take the world matter of factly and care about important issues as well as try to be a moral person. Inevitably in the process, I have to take stands as I express my opinion and stand up for others and my own beliefs, and this offends some people of different ideas, or makes them think of me as taking things too seriously.

    Situation 2: I simply don't care. In the process, I don't make stands, which gives the impression that I treat everyone equally. I put in no work, and it still draws people to my personality, because they perceive me accepting.

    In Situation 1, I really cared about being moral. Yet Situation 2, it may follow some old sayings about how wisdom is holding the peace, and in my personal experience, it really works also.

    So finally, the conclusions I make:

    1. Morality is a cruise control system. I don't suddenly become more moral by striving harder, and I don't suddenly become less moral by not caring about anything.

    2. Sometimes trying to make a difference in the world is a wasted effort. Not always, but sometimes. For example, suppose a group protests a school, and the school having more power, rather than backing down, enforces even more rules on its existing students, to keep them from protesting. Zero tolerance policies.
     
  2. Amanaki

    Amanaki Well-Known Member

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    Nice post, But i see moral more as how we act, speak and think toward others. in the way that if you have bad thoughts, speak badly about other or do unwholesome deeds one see it as less good moral.

    But if you always strive to speak, act and think good about you self and others it is good moral.

    And from going from lack of morality to have a higher understanding of morality one do develope virtue
     
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  3. AT-AT

    AT-AT Well-Known Member

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    I finally figured out what direction I should go, when I studied the revelations of the Baha'i faith
    I'd debate that people like you based on knowing you well and your ability to follow rules and laws.
     
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  4. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Just depends on the type of man/woman, you want to be.

    I identify with #1 strongly. And that's ok because that's also the type of man I want to be.

    Of course you can't really force it either. You can only grow into it slowly over time, it takes time (years) to build your principles. But once built you can stand on them firmly on just about any issue. You will be right sometimes, and wrong others. But it is what it is. Sometimes the world is just not fair.

    #2 has its uses as well. Sometimes we need the calm ones to stand back, without a dog in the fight so to speak, and be a voice of reason when emotions are high.

    Don't really see a wrong answer. Just depends on which path attracts you the most.
     
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  5. AT-AT

    AT-AT Well-Known Member

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    I finally figured out what direction I should go, when I studied the revelations of the Baha'i faith
    I have a follow-up question for my audience: Are Goths likeable people if they follow every rule and law?

    I might explain how this relates later, if I think I can formulate the thoughts in a coherent way. We will see. It's testing out a philosophical idea of mine.
     
  6. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    I don't have any issues with goths. Have a goth nephew though he grew out of it. Good relationship with him during and after his goth phase. Dated a goth girl in high school, and again in my mid-20's, still friends with the 2nd one I dated. I am her "stable voice of reason", which isn't really a compliment. It doesn't take a lot to be more stable than her. She never really got out of "the life" so she still lives in the chaos of drugs, unstable living conditions, and just generally a lost soul. I love her to death but she has to do her thing so.:(

    But yeah I don't see any reason why goths can't be likeable, unless they just don't want to be likeable.
     
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  7. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    If that offends someone, it's not your fault, it is entirely on them, and you need not concern yourself about it. If you are expressing an opinion, and people can't handle it, they need to grow up. If standing up for someone wronged upsets someone, proceed with the upsetting without concern.
     
  8. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    Definitely. A degree of likability is needed without getting to know someone often in life, such as job interviews. And cartel leaders who give to the poor tend to be adored and beloved by those who benefit from the charity of the crime lord.
    Id also debates thoughts. That would inherently make many immoral due to illness or circumstance regardless of what is done with the thought. Staying free of angry thoughts isn't moral. Managing them in a constructive and positive way is.
     
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  9. AT-AT

    AT-AT Well-Known Member

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    Great posts so far. If I don't respond with a pretty long summary post in a day or two, someone @ me. Just sitting back and reading all replies right now.

    :pizza:
     
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  10. AT-AT

    AT-AT Well-Known Member

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    I finally figured out what direction I should go, when I studied the revelations of the Baha'i faith
    I've been thinking it over more, and I think we need to separate "living with honor" and "being vocal" into two categories.

    Living with honor - if you see a helpless dog along the street, and you can save it, you save it. The same with humans, though you might have to reword the scenario.

    Being vocal - defending people in arguments that you believe are correct, or protesting. The problem with these things, is that they don't always make the situation better. You are simply adding another voice instead of potentially resolving a situation.

    So I think we need to be careful to live with honor and humility. And not some sort of "I exist to defend everyone" mentality that I've been seeing in some metal songs.
     
  11. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    I think morality is an 'inside job'. We each must decide for ourselves what our ethical and moral imperatives are, and what we want then to become. And none of us gets to decide this for others. So unless we're being asked for our opinions, it's probably wise to keep these issues to ourselves. Respecting the fact that everyone has to live their own life, according to their own choices, will bring us peace, because it's in keeping with the truth of things. Trying to 'fix' the world according to our own ethical and moral imperatives, 1., won't work, 2., will only exhaust and frustrate us, and 3., will only inspire resistance and resentment from others. Because it is not in keeping the the truth of things.
     
  12. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    It depends. If you are being assertive, and someone gets upset, oh well. If all you do is make noise and blabber your lips, shut them. No one can stand up for everyone all the time, but most typically a wrong is not brought to an end until a greater force ends it. This could be words, it could be bombs. But righting a wrong is rarely clean, either.
    Humility and honor are outdated and overrated. One needs no code of higher principles or downplaying oneself to be moral or perceived as good. What you say is honor is pro-social behavior, and its a genetic thing of us being social animals. Modesty is abuse of the psyche. A starvation of Self and achievement. Carefully choosing words and when to speak are far more important, and play a far greater role in how we are perceived by others.
     
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  13. AT-AT

    AT-AT Well-Known Member

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    I finally figured out what direction I should go, when I studied the revelations of the Baha'i faith
    Hi. I hope your day is going well. I agree with all of your post except I kind of got a vibe that you thought the subject wasn't worth bothering with because it won't change anyone's opinions and "shouldn't". If such is the case, I'd just say the purpose of this thread is just:

    1. Discussion

    2. Since I don't hold this view when it applies to myself, if someone presents some really good groundbreaking argument, which I'm not actually expecting because people don't exist to spoon-feed me all day (and I understand that), well I would listen to it.
     
  14. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    If you are saying cruise control is not effective or practical, then I agree. I think it's best to evaluate each situation on a case by case basis.

    Regarding protests, I feel like consistent role modeling is more effective than direct action. But that is being said by a white dude who has never been the target of institutional racism and oppression.
     
  15. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Why not? I would probably annoy them, but they wouldn't bother me.
     
  16. Left Coast

    Left Coast Active Member
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    Situation 2 does not sound very plausible to me. Most people are not going to be "drawn to you" if you don't care and put in no effort with regard to moral situations. They're more likely to regard you as cold, indifferent, or totally disconnected from reality.

    I do agree that you have to pick your battles. You can't die on every moral hill out there. You'll exhaust yourself and may come across as overbearing and self-righteous. We all have to find that right balance.

    Interesting thoughts! :)
     
  17. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    I think it's important that we share how we understand existence, with others, and they with us. But not everyone feels this way. And sharing is not the same as convincing. It's also important that we understand that others may reject our understanding of things, and rightly so.

    The truth is 'what is'. But our experience and understanding of it is both limited and relative. So standing on our own righteousness is seldom a wise nor realistic place to stand.
     
  18. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

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    #2 isn't being moral at all but just exuding a false sense of morality, people do this all the time. They go through the motions and we all think that they are being moral instead of lazy and narcissistic. Truly moral people hold onto higher principles of behavior and act accordingly. LIke James the Just said "faith without works is dead", same with morals
     
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