1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Experiencing God

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Sonofason, Oct 20, 2014.

  1. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    37,753
    Ratings:
    +5,897
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    I disagree. Theological arguments are rational. Just as discussing relationships, aesthetics, etc., can also be rational.
     
  2. Cephus

    Cephus Relentlessly Rational

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,857
    Ratings:
    +597
    Religion:
    None
    You can disagree until the cows come home, the meaning of rational is "based on or in accordance with reason or logic." You don't just get to make up your own meaning to existing words.
     
  3. God lover

    God lover Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2015
    Messages:
    180
    Ratings:
    +22
    Religion:
    Non denominational believer in God
    I think God especially notices the heart. But I kinda like what Thana points out about God acting on God's plan rather than us earning His attention. However, I think God is watching and in fact desires our goodness of heart and the actions that follow. I think God meets us in prayer and worship, which are actions. I haven't always had the same uplifting and really profound experiences in worship and prayer that I sometimes do. So, I think God isn't always gonna blow like a mighty wind and my own actions s during my days dont always warrant God's Spirit to "manifest" (I think there is a better Greek word if anyone knows it) in my heart and indeed to my fingers, toes and scalp.

    I think you're both on to something.


    I totally agree that God is real. After some time the reality of God in our lives is so constantly occurring that one goes from faith to knowing. And then as new doubts rise up, we find our understanding of God keeps growing.

    If we don't want to just talk about feeling God we can talk about how Christ healed people from blindness and crippling diseases. This kind of thing is still happening today. It has happened in my life and in the lives of people I know personally.
     
  4. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    37,753
    Ratings:
    +5,897
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    Reason and logic can apply to the subjective as well as to the objective.
     
  5. Cephus

    Cephus Relentlessly Rational

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,857
    Ratings:
    +597
    Religion:
    None
    Describe how they can apply to a purely subjective claim like the existence of a god. Provide detail.
     
  6. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    37,753
    Ratings:
    +5,897
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    Describe how they don't apply to a purely subjective claim like one's opinion of beauty. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and the reaction of the beholder in beholding beauty is rational, in light of her/his subjective experience of having beheld what s/he considers to be beautiful.
     
  7. Cephus

    Cephus Relentlessly Rational

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,857
    Ratings:
    +597
    Religion:
    None
    You're the one making the claim, it rests entirely on your shoulders to defend it. Shifting the burden of proof is a fallacy for a reason. Either you can do it or you can't and I think it's blatantly clear that you can't.

    The fact is, you don't have the slightest clue what the words that you're using actually mean. Being "reasonable" does not mean that you can formulate some reason why you think the way that you do. Being rational requires that yon comply with the understood and accepted laws of logic and reason. It's no wonder you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
     
  8. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    37,753
    Ratings:
    +5,897
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    So, what you're saying is that it's not reasonable to like art, music, poetry, or a sunset. What you're saying is that one's opinions can't be reasonable.

    The fact is that you're so egotistically caught up in empiricism that you've lost sight of what is actually reasonable. It's no wonder you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
     
  9. Cephus

    Cephus Relentlessly Rational

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,857
    Ratings:
    +597
    Religion:
    None
    All of those things actually exist in reality. Do try for a more applicable example, won't you? And a person's opinions are reasonable, if and only if they are actually reasonable, ie. following the laws of logic and reason. Someone's opinion that the Easter Bunny is real is not a reasonable opinion.

    The real fact here is that you're so emotionally caught up in your religious beliefs, and in religion in general, that you've no clue that your beliefs are utterly idiotic. You don't want to appear foolish so you're pretending that what you believe actually conforms to the laws of logic and reason and are clenching your eyes closed, stuffing your fingers in your ears and screaming "I'm reasonable!" over and over and over every time anyone disagrees. You're just wrong.
     
  10. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    20,940
    Ratings:
    +1,705
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe you should tell us about it becasue it should be informative.
     
  11. Demonslayer

    Demonslayer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2015
    Messages:
    3,144
    Ratings:
    +1,984
    Religion:
    None
    If we don't want to just talk about feeling God we can talk about how Christ healed people from blindness and crippling diseases. This kind of thing is still happening today. It has happened in my life and in the lives of people I know personally.

    How come he never heals any amputees?
     
  12. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    20,940
    Ratings:
    +1,705
    Religion:
    Christian
    I beleive I have not reasoned by personal feelings or opinions which is more than I can say for you. Faced with the facts you come up with some standard of objectivity to excuse you from reasoning about the facts which is a purely emotional response.
     
  13. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    20,940
    Ratings:
    +1,705
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe healing is not a right but it can be a mercy or a grace.
     
  14. Demonslayer

    Demonslayer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2015
    Messages:
    3,144
    Ratings:
    +1,984
    Religion:
    None
    The idea of healing never made any sense to me. First of all, God only heals people of things that can go away naturally to begin with. Completely blind people never see again and if you lose your arm Jesus never puts it back.

    Then for the other stuff like when tumors disappear and people claim God healed them...didn't God give you the tumor to begin with? If God wanted you to live, why not just never let the tumor appear in the first place?

    Additionally, from a logical standpoint it makes no sense. I'm told God has a plan for us all. If this is true, the plan for me is to either die of cancer or not. If his plan for me is to die of cancer, I'll die of cancer. If he plan for me is NOT to die of cancer, and I get a tumor but then God removes it, I was never going to die of cancer in the first place because that wasn't part of God's plan. Unless we're saying God doesn't really have a plan for us all and he changes his mind as he goes. (I shall make Demonslayer die of this tumor...nay, I have changed My mind.)
     
  15. Cephus

    Cephus Relentlessly Rational

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,857
    Ratings:
    +597
    Religion:
    None
    You can believe what you want, you can make whatever claims that you want, it matters what you can prove at the end of the day and without objective evidence for the things that you believe, without a logical and rational basis for what you believe, you are, like it or not, operating on emotion and personal opinions. Tell yourself another lie if it makes you happy, it doesn't change reality.
     
  16. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    20,940
    Ratings:
    +1,705
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe you have the gist of it. God does not change His mind. However we do all the time and experience is a great teacher.
     
  17. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    20,940
    Ratings:
    +1,705
    Religion:
    Christian
    This is my first experience of God when I was thirteen years old:

    I had a record ( a music disc that could be played on a turntable) that my mother did not like. One day I found it broken and she said it was an accident but I felt she did it on purpose. I went to a secluded place and rpayed to God for Him to punish my mother and waited for His answer. He said to me: Do you love your mother? I said: Yes. He said: Do you love your mother more than the record? I said: Yes. He said: Then does it matter whether she did it on purpose or not? I didn't answer but I could see the logic in saying it didn't matter because I loved my mother.

    At the age of thirteen I was pretty innocent and no-one told me I shouldn't hear from God so I simply accepted it as a natural occurance.
     
  18. Cephus

    Cephus Relentlessly Rational

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,857
    Ratings:
    +597
    Religion:
    None
    How exactly did God say these things to you? You were most likely having an internal dialogue with yourself. That's pretty **** poor if you ask me.
     
  19. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    20,940
    Ratings:
    +1,705
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe I do have dialogues with myself and I know when I am doing so. The voice spoke to my mind just as my spirit can speak to my mind and my mind can speak to itself. You have an a priori view of what is likely but you have no proof. I have no proof that it was God speaking to me other than the fact that I called out to God and watied for an answer. I was not in thinking mode but in listening mode. I do have a tendency to think when someone is talking to me but that makes me a bad listener. I stilled my thinking because I wanted an answer and was listening attentively.
     
  20. Cephus

    Cephus Relentlessly Rational

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,857
    Ratings:
    +597
    Religion:
    None
    But you haven't proven that. The fact is, all kinds of people are sure they're talking to all kinds of things and there's no evidence at all that it's actually true. You've crafted this narrative, entirely unskeptically, because it makes you feel good, and you're presenting it as proof that your beliefs are well-founded? Seriously?

    Color me entirely unimpressed in your reasoning skills.
     
Loading...