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Featured Expectations of the Messiah Vs What the Scriptures Stipulate

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by wizanda, Aug 23, 2022.

  1. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Find it fascinating looking at what people believe the Messiah will do; when I believe lots of the statements don't add up to what the scriptures prophesied...

    What can you show with scriptures, that don't match the expectations?

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  2. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    This is a list I found which is common among Jews who reject Jesus as Messiah. Its comprehensive IMOP.


    1. The Messiah is born of two human parents, as we said. But Jesus, according to Christian theology, was born of the union between a human woman and Gd (as were many other pagan deities, see above) rather than two human parents.

    2. The Messiah can trace his lineage through his human biological father, back to King David (Isaiah 11:1,10; Jeremiah 23:5; Ezekiel 34:23-24; 37:21-28; Jeremiah 30:7-10; 33:14-16; Hosea 3:4-5). According to Christian theology, Jesus’s father was Gd. Therefore, Jesus’ lineage does not go through his human ‘father’ — Joseph, the husband of Mary.

    3. The Messiah traces his lineage only through King Solomon (II Samuel 7:12-17; I Chronicles 22:9-10). But according to Luke 3:31, Jesus was not a descendant of Solomon, but of Solomon’s half-brother Nathan. Therefore Jesus was not a descendant of King David through King Solomon, and fails this test as well.

    4. The Messiah may not be a descendant of Jehoiakim, Jeconiah, or Shealtiel, because this royal line was cursed. (I Chronicles 3:15-17; Jeremiah 22:18,30). But according to Matthew 1:11-12 and Luke 3:27, Jesus was a descendant of Shealtiel.

    5. The Messiah is preceded by Elijah the prophet who, together with the Messiah, unifies the family (Malachi 4:5-6). This is contradicted by Jesus himself (Matthew 10:34-37).

    According to the traditional Jewish definition of the term, the Messiah will make changes in the real world, changes that one can see and perceive and be able to prove, precisely because they take place in the real world. It is for this task that the Messiah has been anointed in the first place, hence the term, messiah — one who is anointed. These perceptible changes include:

    6. The Messiah reestablishes the Davidic dynasty through his own children (Daniel 7:13-14).
    But Jesus had no children.

    7. The Messiah brings an eternal peace between all nations, all peoples, and all people (Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-4; Ezekiel 39:9). Obviously there is no peace. Furthermore, Jesus said that his purpose in coming was to bring a sword, and not peace (see Matthew 10:34, as referenced above).

    8. The Messiah brings about the world-wide conversion of all peoples to Ethical Monotheism (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Zechariah 8:23; Isaiah 11:9; Zechariah 14:9,16).
    But the world remains steeped in idolatry.

    9. The Messiah brings about an end to all forms of idolatry (Zechariah 13:2).
    But the world remains steeped in idolatry.

    10. The Messiah brings about a universal recognition that the Jewish idea of Gd is Gd (Isaiah 11:9).
    But the world remains steeped in idolatry.

    11. The Messiah leads the world to become vegetarian (Isaiah 11:6-9).

    12. The Messiah gathers to Israel all of the twelve tribes (Ezekiel 36:24).

    13. The Messiah rebuilds the Temple (Isaiah 2:2; Ezekiel 37:26-28).

    14. After the Messiah comes, there will be no more famine (Ezekiel 36:29-30).

    15. After the Messiah comes, death will eventually cease (Isaiah 25:8).

    16. Eventually the dead will be resurrected (Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; Ezekiel 37:12-13; Isaiah 43:5-6).

    17. The nations of the earth will help the Jews materially (Isaiah 60:5-6; 60:10-12).

    18. The Jews will be sought out for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23).

    19. All weapons will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9,12).

    20. The Nile will run dry (Isaiah 11:15).

    21. Monthly, the trees of Israel will yield their fruit (Ezekiel 47:12).

    22. Each tribe of Israel will receive and settle their inherited land (Ezekiel 47:13-13).

    23. The nations of the earth will recognize that they have been in error, that the Jews had it right all along, and that the sins of the Gentile nations – their persecutions and the murders they committed – have been borne by the Jewish people (Isaiah 53).
     
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  3. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Not sure of anywhere scripturally that stated these things, these are clauses of expectations...

    As far as I understand Yeshua can be seen to be a return of David reincarnated, so it is possible to fulfil all the aspects of him being of that line.
    John the Baptist was Elijah (Matthew 17:10-13), and Yeshua was a manifestation from the Lord, before the Curse of Moses (Deuteronomy 28) was placed on the people (Malachi 4:4).

    The Synoptic Gospels, and the Quran, etc, were trying to correct the theology; that there is the God Most High, and then the Divine Council (Deuteronomy 32:7-9).

    Yeshua was pointing to the father being the God Most High, and him being a manifestation of the Lord.

    Where because they didn't understand the language had become confused since Babylon (Isaiah 46:9), they thought he was claiming to be God by saying he was an Eloh (H433), instead of realizing that is a Divine Being, and above the Archangels (Elohim - H430) is the Source of reality (El Elyon - H410 H5945).

    Thus he tried 'to lead the hearts of the children back to the father' (Malachi 4:6 & Malachi 1:6), and the 'priests' corrupted it after (John, Paul, Simon); so now the world is very confused about the structuring of the theological hierarchy.
    According to Yeshua's own speech (Matthew 24:29-31), and Daniel 7's own contexts, that verse is fulfilled at Judgement Day, and then the Messianic Kingdom...

    The promise of the Davidic line continuing after, is then fulfilled in the Age to Come (Ezekiel 34:23-24, Ezekiel 37:24-25, Jeremiah 23:5, Jeremiah 30:8-9, Jeremiah 33:15, Hosea 3:5, Isaiah 55:3, Isaiah 22:22, Isaiah 9:6-7, Revelation 5:5, etc).
    I'd concur with Ezekiel 38-39's timeline: which means after the Battle of Armageddon, where the Rabbinic Zionist (Gog) have stolen the land of unwalled villages (Ezekiel 38:8-10), supported by Christendom (Magog), then there is the Judgement Day Fire at the end of Ezekiel 38:22, and then we come to the Age of Peace after.
    Yeshua set a Snare in Isaiah 8:11-22 to remove all the ungodly idolators from reality at the Judgement Day Fire...

    Then after the remnant who is in the Age to Come, shall know the Source of reality has no form (Isaiah 10:21-23).
    Sorry I believe the modern day Rabbinic Jewish ideas of God are henotheism, and prophesied by Moses in Deuteronomy 32:7-22 to be removed within the Judgement Day Fire, for having rejected Yeshua as their Divine Being (Deuteronomy 32:15).

    Deuteronomy 32:16-18 is very clear if we examine the language: they've rejected their Divine Being (Eloh - H433) Yeshua (H3444), and don't comprehend any more that the God Most High is the Source of reality (El - H410).

    YHVH & Elyon - 2 Samuel 22:14 & Psalms 18:13, Psalms 21:7, Psalms 50:14, Psalms 78:35, Psalms 92:1

    Eloh & Almighty - Job 5:17, Job 6:4, Job 11:7, Job 22:26, Job 27:10, Job 31:2, Job 40:2
    The promise there shall be no death, is in the Age to Come.
    In the next verses it speaks of being cleansed, though it uses the terminology clean water, that prophetic timeline is the Judgement Day Fire, and after they come to the Messianic Kingdom...

    I do question the idea that if we could get the people to question I'm the return of the Messiah, that the Living Water could be the internet teaching correct doctrine; yet so far I've not found people to question that they've already got it wrong.
    It doesn't say rebuilt; it addresses the Lord's Sanctuary will be placed among them...

    That if we take everything into account, many believe this indicates it is built without human hands (Exodus 15:17-18).
    The timeline is:
    Deuteronomy 28 is the last two thousand years of exile for rejecting the Messiah.
    Deuteronomy 29:19-27 is the Judgement Day Fire as Armageddon takes place.
    Deuteronomy 30:1-10 is the resurrection in an instant.
    These are all prophesied to happen in the Age to Come, which is after the resurrection.
    This is one I find so shocking, in Psalms 89:19-21 David is appointed as the 'My Servant', which is then paraphrased by Isaiah 52:10-14; claiming that is the Jewish people is against the Law in the Bible, and Christians who think Isaiah 53 is a Kosher sacrifice, also defiles the Law.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  4. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    christ isn't a single individual. it's a state of consciousness possible for all people.

    1 Corinthians 2:16

    jesus asked peter to feed his lambs.

    arnion

    G721 - arnion - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)


    The KJV translates Strong's G721 in the following manner: Lamb i.e. Christ (28x), lamb (2x).


    so the answer is yes, you are christ. but you're not exclusively christ.

    thou shall not take the lord's name in vain
     
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  5. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Based on scripture I'd say the Messiah was an archangel (Eloh), with the spirit of the Creator (YHVH) within him (1 Thessalonians 4:16)...

    Where there is only one Creator as King over the universe (Psalms 103:19).

    in my opinion. :innocent:
     
  6. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    the spirit of god is in everyone and thing.

    being the first is unique but being is to all
     
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  7. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    You're probably intending your question for Christians. I can give you the skeptic's perspective:

    What can one show with scriptures? That depends on who you are showing it to. A Christian believer will apply motivated reasoning to make the Old Testament and New Testament scriptures on the messiah cohere. The unbeliever (including Jews) will read the two accounts open-mindedly and dispassionately, and easily see that they fail to match in multiple places.

    But there is no chance of reaching such people with rebuttal, such is the nature of a faith-based confirmation bias telling one that the two accounts are not only compatible, but that the first one foretells of the latter. That's what he'll see whatever he is shown that contradicts him.

    "Motivated reasoning is the phenomenon in cognitive science and social psychology in which emotional biases lead to justifications or decisions based on their desirability rather than an accurate reflection of the evidence."
     
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  8. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    I believe Jesus was a Son of God. He was conceived and born the natual way to 2 married parents. John 6: 41-42 "At this, the Jews began to grumble about Jesus because He had said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42They were asking, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then can He say, ‘I have come down from heaven?’”"

    Jesus was known as a regular guy up until his public ministry at 30+ years old. He wasn't known to have been born of a virgin. I believe this idea was added later and it came from the Pagan world. The miracle was the preexisting Son becoming the person of Mary's baby at conception.

    Jesus would conclude that he was NOT the Jewish Messiah, however his coming into the world had been known by seers for ages, long before Judaism evolved from the covenant with Abraham. Jesus chose the term "son of man" from the book of Enoch as best representing his identity. But he did allow his followers to assume his identity becuse he was in truth deliver foreseen and anticipated for ages.

    Followers of Jesus were mainly Jews early on. After he left they sought to justify their faith in him by forcing Jesus into many Old Testament scriptures that were not about him. Paul who never knew Jesus in the flesh came up with his own ideas, namely the atonement doctrine that Jesus never taught.

    The Jews Messiah as they define it never came.
     
  9. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    I believe the Gospel of John was made up by the Sanhedrin to debunk Yeshua's original case.
    There are multiple prophetic ideas fulfilled by there being a virgin birth of a spiritual leader (Isaiah 7:14 & Zoroastrian texts, etc)...

    This wasn't the same as the false demigod concepts; yet that the Divine Beings (Elohim) had incarnated, like Archangels interacting throughout human history - where it then became confused by Babylonian ideas, where they'd made their Divine Beings all demigods.
    I agree what they're expecting of the Messiah didn't, and will never come; as I believe what they expect goes opposite to the Bible, and for the Bible to be accurate, they have to go against prophecy.
    Yeshua clearly in the texts referenced himself as the Messiah; just that the Messianic Age had not come yet, and therefore it wasn't the right time for him to be announced.
    I believe that John, Paul, and Simon were all Pharisaic, where they all taught that through Christ's death it counted for atonement (Balaam Teachings).

    In my understanding the Bible allowed the Pharisees to deliberately lie to humanity (Jeremiah 5:26, Isaiah 29:20-21), to set them all up, and to keep those who'd not follow something so immoral.

    Paul's ideas that Yeshua brought in the Messianic Age is him rewriting prophecy on purpose, to set up the Gentiles, who didn't read the rest of the Bible.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  10. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    I believe with the right motivations, anyone can be corrected to understand what is stated logistically; rather than some having a blind belief, where we can show blatant errors not addressed in their workings.

    Thus my continued attempts, are can we get people to be rational, and detail all their workings; so then we can show how to resolve the comprehension issues between them.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
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  11. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Virgin is a mistranslation, some Christian scholars concede this. If he was a miraculous conception then his father wasn’t from the davidic line.
     
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  12. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    BTW, its not really "clear" that Jesus said without question "I am the Messiah". He was cleverly diplomatic about the tittle. At the well he told the women that he was the one she was looking for. As I've already said there was some basis for the erroneous concept of a Jewish Messiah that evolved within Judaism.


    Jesus’ trial before Pilate (Matthew 27:1-2, 11-26)

    The chief priests and the elders made their plans against Jesus to put him to death. They put him in chains, led him off and handed him over to Pilate, the Roman governor.

    Pilate asked Jesus “Are you the king of the Jews?” Jesus answered, “So you say”, but he said nothing in response to the accusations of the chief priests and elders, which surprised Pilate.

    As much as Christians call Jesus "Messiah" one would think that Jesus would have commonly used the tittle, but he didn't. He chose the term "Son of man" which is used 70 times in the 4 gospels.
     
  13. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Matthew 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
    Matthew 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
    Matthew 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
    Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  14. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    But remember, the Son of God was the deliverer for all of mankind, but the Jews attached certain expectations to the office.


    174:4.6 When no more questions were forthcoming, and as the noon hour was near, Jesus did not resume his teaching but was content merely to ask the Pharisees and their associates a question. Said Jesus: “Since you ask no more questions, I would like to ask you one. What do you think of the Deliverer? That is, whose son is he?” After a brief pause one of the scribes answered, “The Messiah is the son of David.” And since Jesus knew that there had been much debate, even among his own disciples, as to whether or not he was the son of David, he asked this further question: “If the Deliverer is indeed the son of David, how is it that, in the Psalm which you accredit to David, he himself, speaking in the spirit, says, `The Lord said to my lord, sit on my right hand until I make your enemies the footstool of your feet.’ If David calls him Lord, how then can he be his son?” Although the rulers, the scribes, and the chief priests made no reply to this question, they likewise refrained from asking him any more questions in an effort to entangle him. They never answered this question which Jesus put to them, but after the Master’s death they attempted to escape the difficulty by changing the interpretation of this Psalm so as to make it refer to Abraham instead of the Messiah. Others sought to escape the dilemma by disallowing that David was the author of this so-called Messianic Psalm.
     
  15. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    I believe according to multiple verses the Messiah came to destroy (Isaiah 54:16, Ezekiel 5:16, Jeremiah 2:30, Jeremiah 4:7, Jeremiah 22:7), and to set a Snare to see who is worth keeping (Isaiah 8:11-22); not to deliver anyone, where it is a later idea that the Messiah is going to save them.

    I understand based on the religious texts, that people deliver themselves by paying attention to the moral standards put forward by Yeshua, and living righteously.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  16. Goldemar

    Goldemar A queer sort

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    What did the Messiah come to destroy?
     
  17. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    In my understanding when the Worthless Shepherds (Pharisees, Sadducees, and Levites) paid 30 pieces of silver for the price of their Messiah in Zechariah 11, they broke the Abrahamic Covenant (Zechariah 11:10) by their rejection of him, and the Sinai Covenant (Zechariah 11:12-14).

    The 2nd temple was then destroyed, where they eat each others flesh (Zechariah 11:9), as prophesied in Moses's Curse (Deuteronomy 28:53-55), and then the Tribes of Israel were exiled among the nations.

    Next because of Messianic prophecy, the Middle East is about to start WW3, with Judaeo-Christendom fighting with the Muhammadans.

    Within the grand scheme of it all, the Messiah also came to destroy hypocrites, idolators, henotheists, polytheistic thinkers, bigots, accusers & mockers of religious texts; as after only those who've paid attention will remain in the Age to Come.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  18. Goldemar

    Goldemar A queer sort

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    And how exactly did/will the Messiah destroy all these people? Do you mean in the actual, literal sense?
     
  19. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    The way I understand it, is the Messiah is a manifestation from the Creator, where we're all inside a reality like a giant computer game...

    The Creator through the world's religious texts prophesied certain events that will take place, and they've happened historically as predicted.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  20. Goldemar

    Goldemar A queer sort

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    That didn't answer my question.. Can you be more specific? How has the Messiah destroyed all these people?
     
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