Exorcism (And The Implications of Atheism)

[Samantha Rinne]

So I'm reading a book on Russian myths and it occurs to me that the people of the time because of fear state could probably hallucinate and see all sorts of spirits due to pervasive paganism and superstition. The legends then speak of how people started making the sign of the cross, and gradually the belief and presence of such in the minds of ppl began to diminish. So what happens when people who used to be a certain religion like Christian or Buddhist or others with a strong exorcism culture start to become secular? Well atheists and such will be quick to say that they're not afraid of ghosts.

Only they ARE afraid of them. Many atheists actually admit to believing in ghosts and other such things, so yeah, once the religions responsible for driving away ghosts and nature spirits are gone, these pagan spirits cone back with a vengeance. Think of Scotland. They became secular and rather quickly shops of magic and seance stuff pops up.

I'm gonna theorize that as countries become less in touch with why their native religion was able to suppress spirits, people will become more and more affected by a sort of fear of supernatural. Think about the Jewish priests around the time of Jesus. Most of them had ceremonial power only and could not perform many miracles (which is why Jesus was dangerous, he undermined their power). And you hear about people getting possessed left and right. Essentially, secular power (the power of Rome) was seen as absolute, while the power of God was almost just a ritual. And there we have stort after story of people getting loads and loads of demons.

 

[LuisDantas]

So I'm reading a book on Russian myths and it occurs to me that the people of the time because of fear state could probably hallucinate and see all sorts of spirits due to pervasive paganism and superstition. The legends then speak of how people started making the sign of the cross, and gradually the belief and presence of such in the minds of ppl began to diminish. So what happens when people who used to be a certain religion like Christian or Buddhist or others with a strong exorcism culture start to become secular? Well atheists and such will be quick to say that they're not afraid of ghosts.

It depends a lot of how one is raised. Supernaturalism can take forms other than theism, even forms incompatible with it.

Only they ARE afraid of them. Many atheists actually admit to believing in ghosts and other such things, so yeah, once the religions responsible for driving away ghosts and nature spirits are gone, these pagan spirits cone back with a vengeance. Think of Scotland. They became secular and rather quickly shops of magic and seance stuff pops up.

I suppose that we will have to discuss what sample you are using to support these statements; how it was chosen; and how representative that sample would be; before we can aim to reach some form of consensus.

I'm gonna theorize that as countries become less in touch with why their native religion was able to suppress spirits, people will become more and more affected by a sort of fear of supernatural. Think about the Jewish priests around the time of Jesus. Most of them had ceremonial power only and could not perform many miracles (which is why Jesus was dangerous, he undermined their power). And you hear about people getting possessed left and right. Essentially, secular power (the power of Rome) was seen as absolute, while the power of God was almost just a ritual. And there we have story after story of people getting loads and loads of demons.

Of course, anthropology and psychopathology have simpler, more convincing explanations.

 

[Milton Platt]

So I'm reading a book on Russian myths and it occurs to me that the people of the time because of fear state could probably hallucinate and see all sorts of spirits due to pervasive paganism and superstition. The legends then speak of how people started making the sign of the cross, and gradually the belief and presence of such in the minds of ppl began to diminish. So what happens when people who used to be a certain religion like Christian or Buddhist or others with a strong exorcism culture start to become secular? Well atheists and such will be quick to say that they're not afraid of ghosts.

Only they ARE afraid of them. Many atheists actually admit to believing in ghosts and other such things, so yeah, once the religions responsible for driving away ghosts and nature spirits are gone, these pagan spirits cone back with a vengeance. Think of Scotland. They became secular and rather quickly shops of magic and seance stuff pops up.

I'm gonna theorize that as countries become less in touch with why their native religion was able to suppress spirits, people will become more and more affected by a sort of fear of supernatural. Think about the Jewish priests around the time of Jesus. Most of them had ceremonial power only and could not perform many miracles (which is why Jesus was dangerous, he undermined their power). And you hear about people getting possessed left and right. Essentially, secular power (the power of Rome) was seen as absolute, while the power of God was almost just a ritual. And there we have stort after story of people getting loads and loads of demons.

So by your hypothesis, the more secular a country, the more pervasive the belief in the supernatural is? I doubt that is true. In fact, I believe it to be the opposite. But you can convince me with some good statistics from a research paper.....

Your whole scenario is based upon the presupposition that such a thing as demons exist.

Atheism is about the lack of belief in a god. You can have any other position on any other thing and be an atheist, so, yes, there are atheists who have irrational beliefs about other things.

You present as an example for evidence of demons a person who is hallucinating. That is only evidence of a hallucination, not evidence of the reality of the thing being hallucinated.

People who easily believe in demons are also easily convinced of other supernatural claims such as gods. The fact that some use one to cancel out belief in the other does not speak to the truth of either.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

Milton, not quite. My hypothesis is that spirits are real and that certain religions (essentially most of the modern ones but Islam, which still technically believes in djinn) have managed to subdue them, allowing human beings to regain control of their sanity.

Superstition is part of it, in places where churches used to be a big part of the culture but now are secular tourist towns, where the tourists are no longer culturally Christian (or much of anything else) ghost tours seem to be a regular feature. Cape May NJ is a good example. There are definitely some huge churches, but it seems like attendance is down among the tourists (we go every year). Belief is the supernatural is the leftover scum from religion. But what I'm actually talking about it is fear.

You used to hear demon possession as an explanation for seizures along with mental issues. That's technically arguable. I had seizures as a kid, to all intents and purposes, the brain is getting hijacked. You cannot control you arm or leg (mine was limp because they were rolandic seizures but grand mal seizures are way worse). In the last 50 years, secular society has largely prevailed, but it didn't bring the hoped for age of reason. Rather things got weird starting with the hippies, got weirder in the 70s kinda tapered off for awhile in the 80s then started up again by late nineties. Tell me again why everyone was super-afraid of computers crashing? A decent computer technician could back up most stuff if there was a problem and turn the things back on just by swapping out parts. Then the hysteria with terrorism, followed by an insane police state, healthcare rules that no sane person would agree with (a tax penalty? Really?) and now we're living in a world where there are 72 genders and parents are worried about telling their children "no" will hurt their feelings. And there's all sortd of fringe groups (people who don't vaccinate or who believe in chemtrails or people who think this or that). Taken as a whole, the last five or so years especially has been a sort of madness, where you can't trust even your nine to five job to be normal. Do I say this feels like people are demon possessed? Yes, kinda.

My actual hypothesis is that faith functions as a kind of buffer and the more really religious you are (I'm not talking about zeal or fervor but actual spiritual faith) the more strongly you can ward off psychological pressures ( "demons"). You can think of it as a sort of thin barrier of energy surrounding the person warding off things thar possess them. Or you can think of spiritual health as an integral part of mental health without which other obsessions and fears take over.
This is consistent with how things are mentioned in biblical literature (and probably other religions I just haven't cross-referenced), we hear about "the spirit of God left Saul" in the OT, and then an evil spirit posssesses him. In other words he becomes crazy and/or depressed. And in his desperation to find answers to his life, he consults a medium instead of using proper channels. That is, when faith is gone there isn't nothing, other things fill the gap. Jesus also mentions this, talking about a man who gets one demon cast out and being swept clean and suddenly having like a bunch of demons.