• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Exodus was not in Egypt

Magus

Active Member
You didn't even attempt to answer where your basis for the translation of mizraim's meaning comes from. If you can't even establish that foundational premise then how can you expect the rest of your claims to hold up to scrutiny.

Furthermore, although you typed many words, none of them actually dealt with what I told you: that there are two mount hors recognized to exist. One in the south and the north. Your theory doesnt go anywhere for that reason alone.

I already did, but lets take another word of similar meaning.

Mesopotamia

That word means 'Middle of Rivers ', It could be THE Mesopotamia, but it might be used to describe another location in the midst of rivers, It was in fact used in the Septuagint to describe Syria in Genesis 25:20

Σύρου ἐκ τῆς Μεσοποταμίας

The two rivers of Beqaa Valley , Orontes and Litani.
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
I already did, but lets take another word of similar meaning.

Mesopotamia

That word means 'Middle of Rivers ', It could be THE Mesopotamia, but it might be used to describe another location in the midst of rivers, It was in fact used in the Septuagint to describe Syria in Genesis 25:20

Σύρου ἐκ τῆς Μεσοποταμίας

The two rivers of Beqaa Valley , Orontes and Litani.


None of that has anything to do with establishing the meaning of mizraim.

This is the same problem with your response to the fact that two mount hors exist: you post a lot of information, but none of it logically connects to either proving a specific assertion I've challenged you on.
 

Magus

Active Member
None of that has anything to do with establishing the meaning of mizraim.

This is the same problem with your response to the fact that two mount hors exist: you post a lot of information, but none of it logically connects to either proving a specific assertion I've challenged you on.

Prove there is two Mount Hor's
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
Going back to the arrogance of your first sentence in this thread, I just ask: is your pride tied up in being able to invent some new understanding of history that upends thousands of years of accepted Biblical fact? Becausd if that's the case, you're unlikely to be able to humble yourself to even recognize when someone has pointed out a logical contradiction or inaccuracy in your argument.
 

Magus

Active Member
Going back to the arrogance of your first sentence in this thread, I just ask: is your pride tied up in being able to invent some new understanding of history that upends thousands of years of accepted Biblical fact? Becausd if that's the case, you're unlikely to be able to humble yourself to even recognize when someone has pointed out a logical contradiction or inaccuracy in your argument.

Biblical Fact is an Oxymoron, no one as found credible evidence for the existence of Moses or a 6000 year old Earth.

Yet again, where is the proof that they are TWO Mountains called HOR
or ER ER הֹר הָהָֽר = Ωρὄρος > Ararat
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
Prove there is two Mount Hor's


Numbers 20:23 and 33:37 tell us mount hor is on the southern side of Israel, because that's where Edom's territory was. Josephus also reflects this fact in his writings.

Then numbers 34:7 tells us there is a northern mount hor because its used as the northern border of Israel from the med sea.

And I'm still waiting for you to prove mizraim means what you claim.
 

Magus

Active Member
Numbers 20:23 and 33:37 tell us mount hor is on the southern side of Israel, because that's where Edom's territory was. Josephus also reflects this fact in his writings.

Then numbers 34:7 tells us there is a northern mount hor because its used as the northern border of Israel from the med sea.

And I'm still waiting for you to prove mizraim means what you claim.

Numbers 20:22
'they journeyed from Kadesh and came to Mount Hor'

Numbers 33:37
They removed from Kadesh and pitched in Mount Hor

* Why did they go back to Mount Hor ?

Numbers 33:38 ' Aaron died upon Mount Hor

Numbers 33:41
They departed from Mount Hor and pitched in Zalmonah

Numbers 34:8
Mount Hor shall point out your Border onto the Entrance of Hamath
 

Magus

Active Member
Numbers 33:39 - Aaron was an hundred and twenty and three years old when he died in Mount Hor

הֹר הָהָֽר = Ωρὄρος > אֲרָרָט

Mount Ararat is in the Levant, where else would it be.

409f6e0e4e9df470dcd5e9ade97d1ee5--mount-hermon-holy-land.jpg


The Epic of Gilgamesh mentions that Mount Hermon split after Gilgamesh kills Humbaba, the Guardian of the Cedar Forest. One translation of Tablet V states, "The ground split open with the heels of their feet, as they whirled around in circles Mt. Hermon and Lebanon split.

The Mountain in Gilgamesh's flood myth is the same mountain too

Tablet V also states ' Ground split open with the heels of their feet '

Genesis 3:15 ' thou shalt bruise his heel.
Genesis 25:26 ' Esau' heel

Esau that is Edom , that is RED as in the RED Saph or Red Sea , Jordan
or Eden.

The mountain or summit is referred to as Saphon in Ugaritic texts
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
The fact that they returned to mount hor, or that aaron died there, is all well and good - but none of that disproves the fact that we see two mount hors in scripture, one north and one south with edom.

This goes back to what I told you earlier: you are not making any logical connections between the words you post and the original premise you are trying to defend. You may as well be throwing out completely random information for all the good is does in supporting your original assertion. The scripture shows us two mount hors in different locations, and you havent disproved that with any of the rambling statements you've made.

I'm also still waiting for you to prove that Mizraim means what you claim. I take it, by this point, that you are unable to. Which does not surprise me.
 
Last edited:

Magus

Active Member
The fact that they returned to mount hor, or that aaron died there, is all well and good - but none of that disproves the fact that we see two mount hors in scripture, one north and one south with edom.

This goes back to what I told you earlier: you are not making any logical connections between the words you post and the original premise you are trying to defend. You may as well be throwing out completely random information for all the good is does in supporting your original assertion. The scripture shows us two mount hors in different locations, and you havent disproved that with any of the rambling statements you've made.

I'm also still waiting for you to prove that Mizraim means what you claim. I take it, by this point, that you are unable to. Which does not surprise me.

Edom means 'Red' it is the same as Adam , Eden but also ' Red Sea ', in Hebrew it would be ' אָדַם יָם ' ( Yam Adam), The scripture does not show two Mount Hor, both are described to be near Kadesh .

If your American, you won't understand, only know American English and read KJV filter.
 
Last edited:

Rise

Well-Known Member
Edom means 'Red' it is the same as Adam , Eden but also ' Red Sea ', in Hebrew it would be ' אָדַם יָם ' ( Yam Adam), The scripture does not show two Mount Hor, both are described to be near Kadesh .


You don't seem to understand that Edom was a country, which we know historically was south of Judah. That fact doesnt change based on the linguistic meaning of the word edom. Once again, your information has no logical relevance to the point you are trying to prove.

Numbers 20:23 says mount hor was near the border of edom, the country.
That is why there were two mount hors, one had to be south and another north.

The fact alone that mount hor is placed near Edom leaves your theory in shambles. You cannot reconcile it with what the scripture says.
 
Last edited:

Magus

Active Member
The Hebrew word סֻכָּה ( cukkah ) is related to the Latin word 'Sucus' meaning Sap and between August and October ( תִּשְׁרֵי‎ ) , the cones of the cedar trees break up releasing it's seed .

the golden pot that had manna ( Heb 9:6)
Cedar-of-Lebanon-cones-oozing-sap.jpg

Exodus 16:31
- Manna: and it was like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey.

Psalm 104:16
The trees of the LORD are full of sap; the cedars of Lebanon which he hath planted;

Sng 4:11
Thy lips, O my spouse, drop as the honeycomb: honey and milk are under thy tongue; and the smell of thy garments is like the smell of Lebanon.

Numbers 11:7
The manna was as coriander seed, and the colour thereof as the colour of bdellium.

Sng 5:10
My beloved is white and red
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Edom means 'Red' it is the same as Adam , Eden but also ' Red Sea ', in Hebrew it would be ' אָדַם יָם ' ( Yam Adam) .
No, it's not the same as Ŭdŭm. Ŭdŭm means man. Ŭdŭm is derived from adŭmŭh - ground. Adŭmŭh is possibly derived from ŭdom which means red, because of the color of the earth in some places. Dŭm - blood, also comes from ŭdom or perhaps more likely - lends red its Hebrew name.

Eden on the other hand, properly spelled ‎ʕeiden (where ei represents a single diacritic) is from the root ‎ʕdn meaning enjoyment or timeframe. While those translations lend a certain theological depth to the Garden of Eden, one thing is certain: ‎ʕdn =/= adm.

The Red Sea is unrelated here, because "Red Sea" is not found in the Tanach. The Hebrew name is Yŭm Sūf, or Reed Sea. Neither word bearing any relation to adm.

Were "Red Sea" its proper Hebrew name, it would not be spelled אָדַם יָם nor does אָדַם יָם say ( Yam Adam). As is your wont, you've neglected that important point I made way back about Hebrew being written right to left. What you wrote is (Adam Yam), which is backwards. Actually, what you wrote is (ŭdam yŭm) because you can't read Hebrew and are not familiar with Hebrew diacritics you just copied Strong's 119 - which is a verb, not a noun - giving you the wrong ones. The spelling you want, in the correct order with the correct diacritics is ים אדום or with diacritics, יָם אָדוֹם (yŭm ŭdom), or in the shortened form ים אדם or יָם אָדֹם. In Hebrew today it is called ים האדום - the Red Sea.

If your American, you won't understand, only know American English and read KJV filter.

Pro-tip for next time: Hebrew roots come in three letter verbs that are read in the masculine, third person, past tense. אָדַם יָם <--- [he] reddened a sea.

Teach us more Hebrew etymology please.
 

Magus

Active Member
No, it's not the same as Ŭdŭm. Ŭdŭm means man. Ŭdŭm is derived from adŭmŭh - ground. Adŭmŭh is possibly derived from ŭdom which means red, because of the color of the earth in some places. Dŭm - blood, also comes from ŭdom or perhaps more likely - lends red its Hebrew name.

Eden on the other hand, properly spelled ‎ʕeiden (where ei represents a single diacritic) is from the root ‎ʕdn meaning enjoyment or timeframe. While those translations lend a certain theological depth to the Garden of Eden, one thing is certain: ‎ʕdn =/= adm.

The Red Sea is unrelated here, because "Red Sea" is not found in the Tanach. The Hebrew name is Yŭm Sūf, or Reed Sea. Neither word bearing any relation to adm.

Were "Red Sea" its proper Hebrew name, it would not be spelled אָדַם יָם nor does אָדַם יָם say ( Yam Adam). As is your wont, you've neglected that important point I made way back about Hebrew being written right to left. What you wrote is (Adam Yam), which is backwards. Actually, what you wrote is (ŭdam yŭm) because you can't read Hebrew and are not familiar with Hebrew diacritics you just copied Strong's 119 - which is a verb, not a noun - giving you the wrong ones. The spelling you want, in the correct order with the correct diacritics is ים אדום or with diacritics, יָם אָדוֹם (yŭm ŭdom), or in the shortened form ים אדם or יָם אָדֹם. In Hebrew today it is called ים האדום - the Red Sea.



Pro-tip for next time: Hebrew roots come in three letter verbs that are read in the masculine, third person, past tense. אָדַם יָם <--- [he] reddened a sea.

Teach us more Hebrew etymology please.


I already determined that the 'Red came from יָם ( yäm )
were-as Sūf as it's own meaning relating to פֶּה.

Then explain 2 Ch 20:16
'בְּסֹוף הַנַּחַל

or Joe 2:20
"יָם סוֹף

Why doesn't Joe 2:20 translates 'Red Sea ?

יָם ( yäm ) dialects would make it אֵד ( Dam ) ' Blood '
which is ruddy אַדְמֹנִי or אדם

In Greek αἷμα ( aima ) is 'Blood'
ἐρᾷ ( Era) ' earth '
ἠρα ( Hra ) ' blood '
ἦᾰρ (êar), ῐ̓́ᾰρᾰ (íara) 'blood'
יְאֹר דָם ( River of Blood ? )

Are you a Biblical literalist ? is that your problem?


In the Septuagint , Eden is written Εδεμ ( Edem )

Gen 2
Mist(AD) from (MN) earth, and watered the whole face of ADAM The God formed ADAM of the dust of ADAM, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and ADAM became a living soul. The God planted a garden eastward in ADAM and there he put ADAM whom he had formed and out of ADAM The God grew every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil and a river went out of ADAM to water the garden; and from thence it was parted and became four heads

Was there really a Man in this story?
 
Last edited:

Tumah

Veteran Member
I already determined that the 'Red came from יָם ( yäm )
were-as Sūf as it's own meaning relating to פֶּה.
Wrongly. Quite.

Then explain 2 Ch 20:16
'בְּסֹוף הַנַּחַל
There are two words that are spelled the same, but have different diacritics and by extension are pronounced differently: the word סֹוף that you have here, pronounced sof, means "end". The other one is סוּף pronounced sūf, as is found in Ex. 2:5 and it means reed. Since the name of the sea is yŭm sūf, it means "sea of reeds".

or Joe 2:20
"יָם סוֹף

Why isn't Joe 2:20 translates as 'Red Sea ?
Because that's not what it says. It says
וספו אל הים האחרון
and its end / to / the sea / the last (ie. and its end to the last sea)

יָם ( yäm ) dialects would make it אֵד ( Dam ) ' Blood '
No, those are two different dialects. The former is called a qumats (it looks like an uppercase T under the letter) and the latter is called a tseirei (it looks like to dots side by side under the letter).
The qumats is pronounced kind of similar to a short ŭ, although in Modern Hebrew it is pronounced the same as the pathaḥ as a short ă.
The tseirei is pronounced like the diphthong ei, although in Modern Hebrew it is usually pronounced the same as the segol as a short ĕ.

Hence, what you've written are יָם - yŭm (sea) and אֵד - eid (vapor or cloud). Blood is spelled דָם (dŭm).

which is ruddy אַדְמֹנִי or אדם
The first word אַדְמֹנִי means ruddy as its an adjective.

The second word אדם lacking diacritics, requires context to parse as it can variously mean "man (אָדָם) ", "Edom (אֶדֹם)", "their vapor (אֵדָם)", "red (אָדֹם)" or "[he] reddened (אָדַם)".

In Greek αἷμα ( aima ) is 'Blood'
ἐρᾷ ( Era) ' earth '
ἠρα ( Hra ) ' blood '
ἦᾰρ (êar), ῐ̓́ᾰρᾰ (íara) 'blood'
יְאֹר דָם ( River of Blood ? )
This is a random assortment of words.

Are you a Biblical literalist ? is that your problem?
Are you trying to say that when looking for the etymological source for a word, using the literal meaning of the word is the wrong way to go?

In the Septuagint , Eden is written Εδεμ ( Edem )
The Mishnah (and the Jerusalem Talmud) predates the earliest manuscript of the LXX by over a hundred years and spells it ʕeiden.

It's also noteworthy that Greek doesn't have a parallel to the Hebrew letter ayin. The ayin is a voiced pharyngeal fricative represented by the ʕ. The Greek O that takes the same position is simply the long ō sound. So the LXX had no way of writing this name exactly as pronounced. Because of this, without being familiar with the Hebrew text, you don't really have a way of differentiating between when the Hebrew aleph is used or the Hebrew ayin is used when reading a transliteration. Hence ʕeiden is spelled Εδὲμ and Eliah (Elijah) is spelled Ηλίας and Elishah is spelled Ελισσαῖος even though in Hebrew ʕeiden is spelled with an ayin while both Eliah and Elishah are spelled with an aleph.

Mist(AD) from (MN) earth, and watered the whole face of ADAM The God formed ADAM of the dust of ADAM, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and ADAM became a living soul. The God planted a garden eastward in ADAM and there he put ADAM whom he had formed and out of ADAM The God grew every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil and a river went out of ADAM to water the garden; and from thence it was parted and became four heads

Was there really a Man in this story?
Yes. You've made some changes to the text (and not recognized some word placement due to changes between Hebrew to English grammar) in order to suggest some other interpretation.
 

Magus

Active Member
These are not random words, all of these words are referring to blood.
αἷμα ( aima ) 'Blood'
ἐρᾷ ( Era) ' earth '
ἠρα ( Hra ) ' blood '
ἦᾰρ (êar), ῐ̓́ᾰρᾰ (íara) 'blood'

They you go, cognates of יָם and אדם

It is well know that Hebrew writings were originally written without diacritics and Mishnah / Talmud are corrupt, they can be thrown out and the Septuagint is not a translation of the Masoretic .

The word Estuary means marsh but the word itself mean 'burnt ' PIE *aidh- "to burn and is related to the Hebrew words אֵשׁ and אוּד

Gen 2:6
But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground

אֵד is apparently related to אוּד

ERIDANUS (Eridanos) - Hyperborean River-God of Greek Mythology
Eridanos means 'early burnt '

It is rather obvious the Phoenicians (whom you believe never existed ) inspired that Greek story for in that story, Phaethon's flaming body plunged into the river when it was struck by the chariot of the Sun

Phaethon means ' Shining '
Φαεθων
That Φα + εθων
אוּד אַתּוּן עֶדֶן

פֶּה
פִּי שׁוֹן
פִּי תוֹן
קִי שׁוֹן

פֶּה ( Mouth )
שְׂפַת
סוֹף

פִּי הַחִרֹת ( Burnt Mouth )
Αἰθιο πίας ( Burnt mouth )
אוּדפִּי
אֵשׁ פִּי

Gihon ( גִּיחוֹן )

Jeremiah 12:5
swelling of Jordan
בִּגְאֹון הַיַּרְדֵּֽן

What exactly is Elijah doing to the waters?

2 Kings 2:8
And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters

2 Kings 2:11
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

2 Kings 2:13
He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan;

Saphah Jorden
שְׂפַת הַיַּרְדֵּֽן

1 kings 18:40
Elijah brought them down to the brook of Kishon

That is χειμάρρουν Κισων and χειμάρρουν litterally means ' Winter torrents '
Greek Word Study Tool

K/P interchange hence.
Κισων - קִישׁוֹן
Φισων - פִּישׁוֹן
 
Last edited:

user4578

Member
Mizraim is Egypt in Hebrew
Padanaram is where Laban(Lebanon) the Syrian dwelt
How are you associating Ramath with Lebanon? Clearly you are not referring to the one in Gilead.
Eden/Edem(Sept. - which as you say is not MT) is not literally 'Edom'
'Red Sea , Eden, Edem and Jordan are all synonymous terms.' Red Sea != Eden/Edem, Red Sea leads to 'Ethiopia', suph means mouth?, Pihahiroth != Ethopia[Exd 14:9]
How is Lebanon on the Ham branch? ~ Laban
Sinai = sheleg?
Jos 13:5, Hamath is seemingly in western Lebanon ~Jdg 3:3, Num 34:8
Num 21:4 - they traveled from the Red Sea to Mt. Hor
Psalm 68:14 = Amoritic battle(Sihon/Og), poetry(hail), therefore Sinai != Zalmon(or Hermonian snows)

frogs(click links) = abcdefg
Locust(arbeh echad = one locust), grasshoppers appendages ~ clefts?, snow?
Ice Giants(naphal = snow?)

Cyrus, Kurios, Caesar
qof = kappa(convenient proof, Cairo?), angels != the Lord [Isa 6]

cloud, falling cloud? snow?

and the four principal parts of verb are?

enough of your nonsense for now...
 
Last edited:

Magus

Active Member
Mizraim is Egypt in Hebrew
Padanaram is where Laban(Lebanon) the Syrian dwelt
How are you associating Ramath with Lebanon? Clearly you are not referring to the one in Gilead.
Eden is not Eden, not literally 'Edom'
'Red Sea , Eden, Edem and Jordan are all synonymous terms.' Red Sea != Eden & Edem != Eden, Red Sea != Edem, Red Sea leads to 'Ethiopia', suph means mouth?, Pihahiroth != Ethopia[Exd 14:9]
How is Lebanon on the Ham branch? ~ Laban
Sinai = sheleg?
Jos 13:5, Hamath is seemingly in western Lebanon ~Jdg 3:3, Num 34:8
Num 21:4 - they traveled from the Red Sea to Mt. Hor
Psalm 68:14 = Amoritic battle(Sihon/Og), poetry(hail), therefore Sinai != Zalmon(or Hermonian snows)

frogs(click links) = abcdefg
Locust(arbeh echad = one locust), grasshoppers appendages ~ clefts?, snow?
Ice Giants(naphal = snow?)

Cyrus, Kurios, Caesar
qof = kappa(convenient proof, Cairo?), angels != the Lord [Isa 6]

cloud, falling cloud? snow?

and the four principal parts of verb are?

enough of your nonsense for now...

How many clone accounts do you need?


Gen 2:9
Out of Adamah , it grew trees of every kind and a 'tree' in the middle of Edem
Gen 1:6
Let there be a Chariot in the midst of the waters
Exod 8:22
I am the LORD in the midst of the earth.
Exo 14:16
But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it ... dry ground through the midst of the sea
Exo 14:22
And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground
Exo 14:29
But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea
Deu 5:4
The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire
Josh 3:17
LORD stood firm on dry ground in the midst of Jordan
Josh 4:3
Take you hence out of the midst of Jordan, out of the place where the priests' feet stood firm, twelve stones
Josh 13:16
Aroer, that is on the bank of the river Arnon, and the city that is in the midst of the river,
Judges 15:4
put a firebrand in the midst between two tails.
Psa 46:2
the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea
Isa 41:18
I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water.
Dan 3:11
the midst of a burning fiery furnace
1Ki 7:46
In the plain of Jordan did the king cast them, in the clay ground between Succoth and Zarthan
 

Magus

Active Member
Here is some interesting linguistic magic

Potamus means River in Greek, but split it into PO and TAM

TAM DAM YAM ( Dialects )

The first part PO that is פֶּה ( Mouth ) or opening

פֶּה יָם
פֶּה דָּם
פֶּה אדם

δημόν (Dhmon) means country-district, country, land

Jeremiah 23:8 - The North Country '
shall dwell in their own land (Dhmon)

צָפוֹן (Tsaphon) is cognate with Greek χῶρον (Khopon ) ' North-west Wind'
Greek Word Study Tool
www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=H6828

Here is a task for a Hebrew

How do you write 'North West' in Hebrew ?
 
Last edited:
Top