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Exodus: History and myth, then and now

According to 1 Kings, 480 years after the Israelites left Egypt, Solomon finished the Temple in 3 sections over a 7 year period – [6:9], [6:14], [6:38]. Yet one day is 480 minutes x 3 (= 1440 minutes), so this is typological to the way God created the heaven and the earth in a single day.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I think there are good correlation for the destructions of the cities, and also for egypt, but there is an huge problem: if the exodus really occurred in 1500-1450 BC, the Israelites were present in Palestine between 1400 and 1200.

But there are a lot of evidences proving that the Egyptians ruled the whole territory during this period of the time, and all the kings of Canaan (who were numerous and divided as it is reported in the Bible) were in fact nothing more than Egyptians vassals with a few autonomy.



You are quite correct that the Egyptians had political control of Canaan in 1400 BC and they maintained that control by means of suzerainty treaties with the kings of the local city states.

The reality of the situation, however, was that the Egyptians had very few troops and other personnel in Canaan. They had several administrative centers in the lowlands, such as Gaza, Joppa, Megiddo and Beth Shan, but did not maintain a similar presence in the highlands.

It was in the highlands that the Israelites settled, in the area that is often referred to as the central hill country.

The areas that the Israelites could not conquer, listed in both Joshua and Judges 1, were the lowlands, the areas occupied by the Egyptians.

Egyptian Domination of Canaan during Joshua/Judges
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Is it that you can't read or what?

Chronology

According to 1Ki 6:1 the exodus took place 480 years before "the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel."

Since that year was c. 966 b.c., it has been traditionally held that the exodus occurred c. 1446.

Solomon's Temple was sacked and burned by Nebuchadnezzar's troops in 587 B.C. Josephus the historian states that the Temple had stood for 470 years six months and ten days, and if it was built 480 years after the exodus, then the Exodus, according to these figures, would have occurred in1537 B.C.

587 + 470 + 480 = 1537 B.C.

I know that you can read, but I very much doubt that you have the mental capacity to comprehend that which I have written.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Solomon's Temple was sacked and burned by Nebuchadnezzar's troops in 587 B.C. Josephus the historian states that the Temple had stood for 470 years six months and ten days, and if it was built 480 years after the exodus, then the Exodus, according to these figures, would have occurred in1537 B.C.

587 + 470 + 480 = 1537 B.C.

I know that you can read, but I very much doubt that you have the mental capacity to comprehend that which I have written.

1st Kings 6:1

Solomon Builds the Temple
1 In the four hundred and eightieth year after the Israelites came out of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv, the second month, he began to build the temple of the LORD.

So now you're going to dispute 1 Kings?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
How long were the Jews slaves in Egypt?

That means the Jews were in Egypt 96 years without any slavery.

We know Miriam was named after the bitterness of the slavery, and we know she was born 86 years before the exodus.

So although the Jews were in Egypt for 210 years total, only 86 - 116 of those years involved slavery.

How many years did the Jews spend in Egypt? - Passover

www.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/617888/jewish/How-many-years-did-the-Jews-spe…

According to 1Ki 6:1 the exodus took place 480 years before "the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel."

Since that year was c. 966 b.c., it has been traditionally held that the exodus occurred c. 1446.
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
So, according to the Bible, 600,000 men came out of Egypt. Add their families and we are talking about a couple million people at least. What was the population of Egypt in that time?

The Bible also says that the entire generation that came out of Egypt died in the wilderness (except for Joshua and Caleb.) That means there should be about 2.5 million Jewish graves somewhere in the wilderness that would confirm the Biblical account. Where are they?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
So, according to the Bible, 600,000 men came out of Egypt. Add their families and we are talking about a couple million people at least. What was the population of Egypt in that time?

The Bible also says that the entire generation that came out of Egypt died in the wilderness (except for Joshua and Caleb.) That means there should be about 2.5 million Jewish graves somewhere in the wilderness that would confirm the Biblical account. Where are they?

The population of Egypt was about 4 million.. but the Egyptians never noticed their leaving.

You have to wonder why there were only few thousand when they finally got to the promised land.

How can anyone possible take this stuff literally.

We have an old fool chasing me around the board claiming Santorini caused the parting of the Red Sea.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
1st Kings 6:1

Solomon Builds the Temple
1 In the four hundred and eightieth year after the Israelites came out of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv, the second month, he began to build the temple of the LORD.

So now you're going to dispute 1 Kings?

Again you prove to all your total inability to comprehend the written word.

I agree with 1 kings, Solomon did build the Temple 480 years after the Exodus, and it stood, according to Josephus the historian for 470 years six months and ten days before it was sacked and burned in 587 B. C.

I think by now most realise that you are incapable of comprehending that which you read, but hopefully you can add up.
In 587 B.C., the temple was destroyed. The temple had stood for 470, years which means it was built in 1057 B.C., 587+ 470 =1057, now are you able to comprehend that, so far? OK, if Solomon built his temple in 1057 B.C., 480 years after the exodus, this means that the exodus occurred in 1537, according to those figures, 1057 + 480 = 1537 B.C.

For goodness sake woman, get one of your grand children to explain every post that you read, before responding.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Excerpt:

This is the story many of us know from childhood, but is there any historical truth to it? Is it possible that a group of people wandered the desert for 40 years, and were they the forefathers of the Jewish faith? We talked to Prof. Israel Finkelstein, a senior researcher at the Department of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University and one of the most prominent scholars in the field of biblical archeology today.

"The question of historical accuracy in the story of Exodus has occupied scholars since the beginning of modern research," says Prof. Finkelstein. "Most have searched for the historical and archaeological evidence in the Late Bronze Age, the 13th century BCE, partly because the story mentions the city of Ramses, and because at the end of that century an Egyptian document referred to a group called ’Israel‘ in Canaan.

However, there is no archaeological evidence of the story itself, in either Egypt or Sinai, and what has been perceived as historical evidence from Egyptian sources can be interpreted differently. Moreover, the Biblical story does not demonstrate awareness of the political situation in Canaan during the Late Bronze Age – a powerful Egyptian administration that could have handled an invasion of groups from the desert.

Additionally, many of the details in the Biblical story fit better with a later period in the history of Egypt, around the 7-6th centuries BCE – roughly the time when the Biblical story as we know it today was put into writing.

“However, this was not a story invented by later authors, since references to the Exodus appear in Hosea and Amos' chapters of prophecy, which probably date to the 8th century BCE, suggesting that the tradition is ancient. In this sense, some scholars propose that the origin lies in an ancient historical event – the expulsion of Canaanites from the Nile Delta in the middle of the second millennium BCE. In any case the Exodus story is layered and represents more than one period.

“It seems that the story of the exodus was one of the founding texts of the Northern Kingdom (Israel) and that it came to Judah after the destruction of Israel. It is possible that in the later days of Judah, a time of approaching confrontation with Egypt, the story expressed hope, showing a clash with mighty Egypt of the distant past, in which the Children of Israel prevailed. Later the story held a message of hope for those exiled in Babylon, that it was possible to overcome exile, cross a desert and return to the land of the forefathers. Above all, the story of Exodus has been an eternal metaphor for escaping slavery for freedom, in Jewish and other traditions."

Slavery and the yearning for redemption – then and now

We also met with Prof. Ron Margolin, of the Department of Jewish Philosophy and the MA Program in Religious Studies, and head of the Ofakim program, who talked about the meaning of the Exodus story in our lives today:

"Exodus is the foundational myth of Judaism after the destruction of the Second Temple, and in many ways its parallel in the Christian world – that differs from it significantly –is the myth of Christ's crucifixion," Prof. Margolin said. "The first reflects a belief in personal and national redemption and an optimistic future for one and all on the basis of commitment to upholding the laws of the Torah and their spirit. The second reflects a belief in personal salvation for the whole based on empathy with the suffering god-man.

“The importance of the story of Exodus is in its existential meaning for the individual and the people. Exodus is liberation from bondage for the Jews, but its purpose is also to shape the life of the individual as the Haggadah demands: ‘In each and every generation a person is obligated to see himself as if he went out of Egypt.’

This means that every person should see themselves, on Passover and all year round, as one who is redeemed, i.e., left Egypt. In the Bible, the requirement to ‘Remember that you were slaves in Egypt’ (Deuteronomy 5: 15) is the most common reasoning for the moral commandments.

Those who were freed from slavery must remember the taste of it so they can have empathy for those who are in bondage now. ‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. […] Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God’ (Leviticus 25: 39-43). ‘Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt ’ (Exodus 22: 21).

“The Passover Haggadah was formulated after the destruction of the Second Temple as a substitute for the Passover sacrifice. In light of the subjugation to the Romans, the authors emphasized the hope for the people's redemption – what we now call national redemption. The realization of that hope was the establishment of the State of Israel.

But Judaism does not separate the redemption of the group from that of the individual, and there is no point in national redemption if individuals continue to act as slaves. Today, more than ever, it is important not to forget the educational role of the Seder.

“Along with giving thanks for the end of the national plight, it's important to note the existential and moral implications of the exodus story through the ages. Leaven (“chametz”) originates from the yeast that ferments and sours the dough, which was used as a metaphor for evil inclination as early as the days of the sages. Kabbalistic-Hassidic writings deepened this meaning. Destroying leaven became a symbolic expression of internal detachment from evil within the individual, from the soured heart. Eating matza during Passover expresses the longing for a new beginning that characterizes the spring. Slavery has, as I've said, two meanings – the national-political and the individual-moral.

Slavery is slavery to habits, difficult traits, personal memories, impulses and excessive passions. The yearning for redemption is a yearning for the redemption of all, but this cannot be realized without the redemption of individuals from their personal enslavements."

Whether the story occurred in the distant past, or whether it's really a parable or myth, Tel Aviv University would like to wish everyone a happy Passover, and may we all be liberated from our personal, social, physical and psychological enslavements towards the spring of freedom and new beginnings.

Exodus: History and myth, then and now

Unfortunately for the genius professor herein quoted, I just went to Israel, where I saw firsthand constant archaeogical reminders of the utter veracity of both testaments.
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately for the genius professor herein quoted, I just went to Israel, where I saw firsthand constant archaeogical reminders of the utter veracity of both testaments.

Yes, the Bible might get many things right. That doesn't mean it got ALL things right, let alone things of a spiritual nature that are not falsifiable (that is having at least the POTENTIAL for being disproven.)
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Unfortunately for the genius professor herein quoted, I just went to Israel, where I saw firsthand constant archaeogical reminders of the utter veracity of both testaments.

You mean Prof. Israel Finkelstein? Yeah .. he's a pretty smart guy.

Can you also back me up on the lack of pasture suitable for horses?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Again you prove to all your total inability to comprehend the written word.

I agree with 1 kings, Solomon did build the Temple 480 years after the Exodus, and it stood, according to Josephus the historian for 470 years six months and ten days before it was sacked and burned in 587 B. C.

I think by now most realise that you are incapable of comprehending that which you read, but hopefully you can add up.
In 587 B.C., the temple was destroyed. The temple had stood for 470, years which means it was built in 1057 B.C., 587+ 470 =1057, now are you able to comprehend that, so far? OK, if Solomon built his temple in 1057 B.C., 480 years after the exodus, this means that the exodus occurred in 1537, according to those figures, 1057 + 480 = 1537 B.C.

For goodness sake woman, get one of your grand children to explain every post that you read, before responding.


Solomon's reign began in 970 or 971 BCE So, the fourth year of Solomon's reign was 966 or 967 BCE So the date of the Exodus can be calculated: 966/7 + 480 = 1446/7 BCE

Which Egyptian Pharaoh was approached by Moses to demand ...
www.quora.com/Which-Egyptian-Pharaoh-was-approached-by-Moses-to-demand-the-release-of-the-Isr…
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Josephus wasn't born until 37 AD, genius.

I take a fairly conservative view with the Exodus around 1440 BC

The Brooklyn Papyrus has an interesting list of slaves in Egypt with very Jewish names
Hebrews in Egypt before the Exodus? Evidence from Papyrus Brooklyn | APXAIOC

"...The Hebrew names found on the list include: Menahema, a feminine form of Menahem (2 Kings 15:14); Ashera, a feminine form of Asher, the name of one of the sons of Jacob (Genesis 30:13); Shiphrah, the name of one of the Hebrew midwives prior to the Exodus (Exodus 1:15); ‘Aqoba, a name appearing to be a feminine form of Jacob or Yaqob, the name of the patriarch (Genesis 25:26); ‘Ayyabum, the name of the patriarch Job or Ayob (Job 1:1); Sekera, which is a feminine name either similar to Issakar, a name of one of the sons of Jacob, or the feminine form of it (Genesis 30:18); Dawidi-huat a compound name utilizing the name David and meaning “my beloved is he” (1 Samuel 16:13..."

Some dating methods might take the kingdoms of northern and southern Egypt as sequential instead of having some overlap and how you look at it may drive differing conclusions about the dates
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Excerpt:

This is the story many of us know from childhood, but is there any historical truth to it? Is it possible that a group of people wandered the desert for 40 years, and were they the forefathers of the Jewish faith? We talked to Prof. Israel Finkelstein, a senior researcher at the Department of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University and one of the most prominent scholars in the field of biblical archeology today.

"The question of historical accuracy in the story of Exodus has occupied scholars since the beginning of modern research," says Prof. Finkelstein. "Most have searched for the historical and archaeological evidence in the Late Bronze Age, the 13th century BCE, partly because the story mentions the city of Ramses, and because at the end of that century an Egyptian document referred to a group called ’Israel‘ in Canaan.

However, there is no archaeological evidence of the story itself, in either Egypt or Sinai, and what has been perceived as historical evidence from Egyptian sources can be interpreted differently. Moreover, the Biblical story does not demonstrate awareness of the political situation in Canaan during the Late Bronze Age – a powerful Egyptian administration that could have handled an invasion of groups from the desert.

Additionally, many of the details in the Biblical story fit better with a later period in the history of Egypt, around the 7-6th centuries BCE – roughly the time when the Biblical story as we know it today was put into writing.

“However, this was not a story invented by later authors, since references to the Exodus appear in Hosea and Amos' chapters of prophecy, which probably date to the 8th century BCE, suggesting that the tradition is ancient. In this sense, some scholars propose that the origin lies in an ancient historical event – the expulsion of Canaanites from the Nile Delta in the middle of the second millennium BCE. In any case the Exodus story is layered and represents more than one period.

“It seems that the story of the exodus was one of the founding texts of the Northern Kingdom (Israel) and that it came to Judah after the destruction of Israel. It is possible that in the later days of Judah, a time of approaching confrontation with Egypt, the story expressed hope, showing a clash with mighty Egypt of the distant past, in which the Children of Israel prevailed. Later the story held a message of hope for those exiled in Babylon, that it was possible to overcome exile, cross a desert and return to the land of the forefathers. Above all, the story of Exodus has been an eternal metaphor for escaping slavery for freedom, in Jewish and other traditions."

Slavery and the yearning for redemption – then and now

We also met with Prof. Ron Margolin, of the Department of Jewish Philosophy and the MA Program in Religious Studies, and head of the Ofakim program, who talked about the meaning of the Exodus story in our lives today:

"Exodus is the foundational myth of Judaism after the destruction of the Second Temple, and in many ways its parallel in the Christian world – that differs from it significantly –is the myth of Christ's crucifixion," Prof. Margolin said. "The first reflects a belief in personal and national redemption and an optimistic future for one and all on the basis of commitment to upholding the laws of the Torah and their spirit. The second reflects a belief in personal salvation for the whole based on empathy with the suffering god-man.

“The importance of the story of Exodus is in its existential meaning for the individual and the people. Exodus is liberation from bondage for the Jews, but its purpose is also to shape the life of the individual as the Haggadah demands: ‘In each and every generation a person is obligated to see himself as if he went out of Egypt.’

This means that every person should see themselves, on Passover and all year round, as one who is redeemed, i.e., left Egypt. In the Bible, the requirement to ‘Remember that you were slaves in Egypt’ (Deuteronomy 5: 15) is the most common reasoning for the moral commandments.

Those who were freed from slavery must remember the taste of it so they can have empathy for those who are in bondage now. ‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. […] Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God’ (Leviticus 25: 39-43). ‘Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt ’ (Exodus 22: 21).

“The Passover Haggadah was formulated after the destruction of the Second Temple as a substitute for the Passover sacrifice. In light of the subjugation to the Romans, the authors emphasized the hope for the people's redemption – what we now call national redemption. The realization of that hope was the establishment of the State of Israel.

But Judaism does not separate the redemption of the group from that of the individual, and there is no point in national redemption if individuals continue to act as slaves. Today, more than ever, it is important not to forget the educational role of the Seder.

“Along with giving thanks for the end of the national plight, it's important to note the existential and moral implications of the exodus story through the ages. Leaven (“chametz”) originates from the yeast that ferments and sours the dough, which was used as a metaphor for evil inclination as early as the days of the sages. Kabbalistic-Hassidic writings deepened this meaning. Destroying leaven became a symbolic expression of internal detachment from evil within the individual, from the soured heart. Eating matza during Passover expresses the longing for a new beginning that characterizes the spring. Slavery has, as I've said, two meanings – the national-political and the individual-moral.

Slavery is slavery to habits, difficult traits, personal memories, impulses and excessive passions. The yearning for redemption is a yearning for the redemption of all, but this cannot be realized without the redemption of individuals from their personal enslavements."

Whether the story occurred in the distant past, or whether it's really a parable or myth, Tel Aviv University would like to wish everyone a happy Passover, and may we all be liberated from our personal, social, physical and psychological enslavements towards the spring of freedom and new beginnings.

Exodus: History and myth, then and now

I wouldn't worry too much about it
Even the primordial soup doesn't have an archeological evidence of its own.
Not even a book of the primordial soup
At least we have a Book of Exodus to read.
 

tigrers2019

Member
Solomon's reign began in 970 or 971 BCE So, the fourth year of Solomon's reign was 966 or 967 BCE So the date of the Exodus can be calculated: 966/7 + 480 = 1446/7 BCE

Which Egyptian Pharaoh was approached by Moses to demand ...
www.quora.com/Which-Egyptian-Pharaoh-was-approached-by-Moses-to-demand-the-release-of-the-Isr…
Thank you for posting this as it proves my point that I made earlier in this thread!

The light is being darkened. It used to be that there would be listed the upper case [earliest dates] and the lower case [latest dates] to these ancient histories. Now there is a rush to crush any effort to get at the truth to these things so there is only the late dates listed to lead students to nothingness.
Our man (Pharoah) is in that link's list. His name is Amenhotep I. The date is the middle 1550s and his bio confirms what the scriptures tell of him.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Solomon's reign began in 970 or 971 BCE So, the fourth year of Solomon's reign was 966 or 967 BCE So the date of the Exodus can be calculated: 966/7 + 480 = 1446/7 BCE

Which Egyptian Pharaoh was approached by Moses to demand ...
www.quora.com/Which-Egyptian-Pharaoh-was-approached-by-Moses-to-demand-the-release-of-the-Isr…

Solomon's temple was destroyed 587 B.C., According to Josephus the historian, the temple had stood for 470 years, six months, and ten days, this reveals that the temple which was completed in the eleventh year of Solomon's reign in 1057 B.C., 480 years after the exodus, which can now be calculated to have occurred, according to these dates, in the year 1537 B.C,.

The temple which was completed in 1057 B.C., in the eleventh year of Solomon's reign, reveals that Solomon began to rule in the year 1068 B.C.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Thank you for posting this as it proves my point that I made earlier in this thread!

The light is being darkened. It used to be that there would be listed the upper case [earliest dates] and the lower case [latest dates] to these ancient histories. Now there is a rush to crush any effort to get at the truth to these things so there is only the late dates listed to lead students to nothingness.
Our man (Pharoah) is in that link's list. His name is Amenhotep I. The date is the middle 1550s and his bio confirms what the scriptures tell of him.

The date of the Exodus of the Israelites from Egypt at the time of Moses has been a subject of uncertainty and controversy for centuries.

The Bible indicates that it was about 1400-1500 BC but many modern scholars have placed it about 1200 BC based on Egyptian chronology.

Thus, even the century in which it occurred has been uncertain.

Methods of dating in detail. This website assumes that the Red Sea parting is historical rather than foundational myth.

Exodus Date
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Yes, the Bible might get many things right. That doesn't mean it got ALL things right, let alone things of a spiritual nature that are not falsifiable (that is having at least the POTENTIAL for being disproven.)

If Jesus is risen from the dead (check) and prophecies are proven fully true (check) there is no longer a need to attempt to falsify the Bible's veracity in doctrine or miracles.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Solomon's temple was destroyed 587 B.C., According to Josephus the historian, the temple had stood for 470 years, six months, and ten days, this reveals that the temple which was completed in the eleventh year of Solomon's reign in 1057 B.C., 480 years after the exodus, which can now be calculated to have occurred, according to these dates, in the year 1537 B.C,.

The temple which was completed in 1057 B.C., in the eleventh year of Solomon's reign, reveals that Solomon began to rule in the year 1068 B.C.

The conventional dates of Solomon's reign are circa 970 to 931 BCE.
 
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