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Excuses for Persecution?

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
The term 'persecution' is thrown around pretty indiscriminately. Christians in the US often use the term when they no longer experience their traditionally privileged social and legal positions and are being treated like everyone else.

If you mean actual persecution, where Christians are systematically deprived of liberties, social access, arrested, imprisoned, beaten, tortured, or murdered a disproportionally higher rate than the average because they are Christians - that does not happen in the Europe or the Americas.

Usually the simple punishment for foreigners where it's illegal is just deportation. Getting deported is hardly persecution.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
True. Though the treatment of local believers where it is illegal is probably persecution.
All depends on what they do. There are almost always two sides to every story, and outside of some Arab countries or North Korea, you're pretty much protected by law. This is just anecdotal, but I talked about this a lot with a former renter. He was a Christian from Tiruchendur in the deep south of India, and his grandfather had been converted. He said that where he lives there is never any trouble at all unless some fool goes looking for it. The guy was really Hindu by all mannerisms, and the only thing that kept him was fear of hell. But he acknowledged that maybe next life time ...

India has a secular government, and 99% of people get along. We only hear the noise of the 1 %.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
even if there are resentments because of proselytizing or other... these can not count as a valid reason for persecution.

Proselytizing is the same as selling a product. I want the same laws to apply to selling no matter what is being sold.

On the other hand, someone who truly walks the talk and lives a life based on the greatest commandments and the Sermon on the Mount will automatically appeal to those who are looking for a religion.

Ramakrishna said this but it applies here: “When the flower blooms, bees come to it of their own accord to partake of the nectar.”
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
Lately I came across some what I consider excuses for the persecution of Christians. This may apply to the persecution of any other religion (or non-religion), too:

One poster said he'd be in favour of an anti-proselytising law with strong enforcement.

Moreover, another poster said that there are resentments that can contribute to persecution arising.

My conclusion: even if there are resentments because of proselytizing or other... these can not count as a valid reason for persecution.

If one attempts to convert someone that clearly doesn't want to be converted, one can expect persecution.

If you're a Ford man, and I continue to badger you to buy a Nissan because I think they're a better car, should I be surprised by a hostile response?

It this really that hard to figure out??
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Lately I came across some what I consider excuses for the persecution of Christians. This may apply to the persecution of any other religion (or non-religion), too:

One poster said he'd be in favour of an anti-proselytising law with strong enforcement.

Moreover, another poster said that there are resentments that can contribute to persecution arising.

My conclusion: even if there are resentments because of proselytizing or other... these can not count as a valid reason for persecution.

I don't see it as an attack on Christians or any religion... it would be an attack on free speech. Free speech is messy. It means you have to allow speech that you may find offensive or annoying. Of course it's a two-way street. Christians have every right to promote their beliefs without it being considered persecution, and others have the right to speak out against Christianity, without it being considered persecution.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
All depends on what they do.
Which is why I said probably.
There are almost always two sides to every story, and outside of some Arab countries or North Korea, you're pretty much protected by law.
Officially, in N Korea, you are protected by law. The law is, of course, no protection.

Aside from that horror of a place, the most countries with the most restrictive laws on religious freedom are Eritrea, Maldives, Mauritania, Thailand, China, Syria, Coromos, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Brunei, Egypt, and Iran. Only half of which are Arabic. According to Pew, "There has been a bigger increase in government limits on religious activities – such as restrictions on religious dress, public or private worship or religious literature – in Europe than in any other region during the course of the study.

India has a secular government, and 99% of people get along. We only hear the noise of the 1 %.
I would hope it's much lower than that. When the US mobilized for WW2, the armed forces was comprised of just over 1% of the population. But I don't know what point you are trying to make.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
Lately I came across some what I consider excuses for the persecution of Christians. This may apply to the persecution of any other religion (or non-religion), too:

One poster said he'd be in favour of an anti-proselytising law with strong enforcement.

Moreover, another poster said that there are resentments that can contribute to persecution arising.

My conclusion: even if there are resentments because of proselytizing or other... these can not count as a valid reason for persecution.


Of course these are not good reasons to persecute. However these people who try persecute religious folks in America lan of the free are in general crazy people. The fact that you take such craziness so seriously to me says you have a desire to talk about being persecuted like many Christians do.

. You are stuck on being persecuted. In America there is no true Christian persecution, and the religious places which are number one to have been bombed and attacked in AMerica is the Jewish Temples..
Muslim Temples are second and Christian churches third. So if there is a group who is really persecuted in America it is the Jewish folks not the Christians.

But I don't hear Jewish folks around here yelling and crying about persecution like Christians do. That's interesting.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Lately I came across some what I consider excuses for the persecution of Christians. This may apply to the persecution of any other religion (or non-religion), too:

One poster said he'd be in favour of an anti-proselytising law with strong enforcement.

Moreover, another poster said that there are resentments that can contribute to persecution arising.

My conclusion: even if there are resentments because of proselytizing or other... these can not count as a valid reason for persecution.

Can you explain 'persecution' to me?
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Lately I came across some what I consider excuses for the persecution of Christians. This may apply to the persecution of any other religion (or non-religion), too:

One poster said he'd be in favour of an anti-proselytising law with strong enforcement.

Moreover, another poster said that there are resentments that can contribute to persecution arising.

My conclusion: even if there are resentments because of proselytizing or other... these can not count as a valid reason for persecution.

While proselytizing can be extremely annoying, I would not support a law against it. If we passed laws against any speech which some group of people found annoying, free speech would be significantly curtailed. In person, I just say "no thank you, I am not interested in hearing that stuff",and cut it off at the beginning. Online, it is more difficult. But it isn't like nobody has ever heard of Christianity before...... I don't understand why in a country that is predominantly Christian (USA), Christians think they have something new to say that has not been heard before.
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
You write UK English........ do you live in the UK?
oh - thank you very much. Actually I'm a German living in Germany. But I studied business English before (and my teacher was English)... and also spent huge chunks of time debating Christian faith in places like worthychristianforums.com and christianforums.com before I came here. I have a good friend in the UK, too.
If you would hear me, you would probably hear my horrible German actsent, too ;).

Thomas
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
Can you explain 'persecution' to me?
yes, thank you for asking, I forgot to include that in the OP. I use the same Wikipedia-definition as @Joe W (quoting from you, Joe) :
"Persecution is the systematic mistreatment of an individual or group by another individual or group. The most common forms are religious persecution, racism and political persecution, though there is naturally some overlap between these terms. The inflicting of suffering, harassment, imprisonment, internment, fear, or pain are all factors that may establish persecution, but not all suffering will necessarily establish persecution. The suffering experienced by the victim must be sufficiently severe. The threshold level of severity has been a source of much debate."
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
Proselytizing is persecution
here we disagree.
As far as I understand persecution, it is:
"the systematic mistreatment of an individual or group by another individual or group. The most common forms are religious persecution, racism and political persecution, though there is naturally some overlap between these terms. The inflicting of suffering, harassment, imprisonment, internment, fear, or pain are all factors that may establish persecution, but not all suffering will necessarily establish persecution. The suffering experienced by the victim must be sufficiently severe. The threshold level of severity has been a source of much debate."
(wikipedia)
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
If one attempts to convert someone that clearly doesn't want to be converted, one can expect persecution.

If you're a Ford man, and I continue to badger you to buy a Nissan because I think they're a better car, should I be surprised by a hostile response?
wanting to convert someone is harrassment.
Christians are told to refrain from it. They are told to invite and accept a potential no rather than persist.
Nevertheless, if you are guilty of harassment... persecution as defined here cannot be justified by that harassment:

"Persecution is the systematic mistreatment of an individual or group by another individual or group. The most common forms are religious persecution, racism and political persecution, though there is naturally some overlap between these terms. The inflicting of suffering, harassment, imprisonment, internment, fear, or pain are all factors that may establish persecution, but not all suffering will necessarily establish persecution. The suffering experienced by the victim must be sufficiently severe. The threshold level of severity has been a source of much debate."

For example, nobody should be thrown into jail for harassment. This would be at odds with the principle of proportionality.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
here we disagree.
As far as I understand persecution, it is:
"the systematic mistreatment of an individual or group by another individual or group. The most common forms are religious persecution, racism and political persecution, though there is naturally some overlap between these terms. The inflicting of suffering, harassment, imprisonment, internment, fear, or pain are all factors that may establish persecution, but not all suffering will necessarily establish persecution. The suffering experienced by the victim must be sufficiently severe. The threshold level of severity has been a source of much debate."
(wikipedia)

Choose your definition from a dictionary, not a public open house that possibility you have written yourself. The page you mentioned has been edited over 1000 times, as thought those writing it don't agree...

Hint, Wikipedia is fine as a first look but it always helps to verify its content independently or at least check the references.

Now to dictionaries, the OED definition relevant in this case is

Persecution ; persistent annoyance or harassment.

Yes, that fits proselytizing perfectly
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
Persecution ; persistent annoyance or harassment.

Yes, that fits proselytizing perfectly
I permit myself to stay with wikipedia here.
The point of this thread is to discuss excuses for human rights violations in the context of proselyting Christians.
I find it wrong when people suffer violations of their human rights just for proselyting.
Proselyting never can justify human rights abuses.
 
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