Excuse my ignorance, but a question about lesbians

[Question_love_act]

I would have to disagree with this strongly. There are effiminate gays, bears, gays that have no particular manierism. Just like you have butch and femme lesbians, you have effiminate and very "manly" gay men.

Just like you have masculine girls and feminine men who are heterosexual.

So to me the butch/femme categorization based on sexual orientation is irrelevant. Sexual orientation (who you love) and sexual expression (how you look like) are two different things.

And I love how this picture shows it:
http://nebraskatranscommunity.com/trans-allies/trans-terms/

 

[Jainarayan]

I really hate that term - "straight acting" gay man. How exactly do you "act/appear straight"?

There's no small amount of facetiousness in there. It's a response to comments like "you're gay? really? I never would have guessed". On a non-facetious note, to me it's just someone who doesn't define himself as being gay first and foremost. He just goes about living his life.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

Why not both!

I see what you did there!

 

[dgirl1986]

Just like you have masculine girls and feminine men who are heterosexual.

So to me the butch/femme categorization based on sexual orientation is irrelevant. Sexual orientation (who you love) and sexual expression (how you look like) are two different things.

I see clothing and how one presents itself as a representation of character and personality rather than sexuality. I see butch straight women all the time. Stereotypes are pretty silly.

 

[Question_love_act]

True! Why call it "sexual" expression when it's personnality? Why did I never think about that?

(Oh boy I'm really unsure about my last sentence's grammar...)

 

[Alceste]

I don't really understand the whole butch/femme dynamic in lesbian culture, either. It confuses me a bit. I mean, I'm a guy and some of those butch lesbians look more like men than I do. It's not really the same with gay/bisexual men. It's something that's pretty unique with lesbian culture. Then again, I'm far more familiar with gay male culture and history, identify with it more and have had more contact with queer men than with lesbians. I don't understand a lot of things about lesbian culture. *shrugs*

Butch dykes look nothing to me like men. They look like women with short hair who don't bother wearing make-up. Having been a straight woman with short hair who didn't bother with make-up for many years, I was never once mistaken for a man. I had no trouble picking straight men up, either.

Got a funny story - my lesbian friend used to cut her own hair. It was a funky, cropped metrosexual style pretty typical of a certain segment of London queer women. Her 12 year old nephew needed a hair cut one day and she offered. After the cut, he took one look in the mirror and burst into tears. "WAH! You made me look like a lesbian!"

Lol. That story always cracks me up.

Anyway, just goes to show - something or other. :yes:

 

[StarryNightshade]

I don't really understand the whole butch/femme dynamic in lesbian culture, either. It confuses me a bit. I mean, I'm a guy and some of those butch lesbians look more like men than I do. It's not really the same with gay/bisexual men. It's something that's pretty unique with lesbian culture. Then again, I'm far more familiar with gay male culture and history, identify with it more and have had more contact with queer men than with lesbians. I don't understand a lot of things about lesbian culture. *shrugs*

If it makes you feel any better, as someone who identifies as a gay male biologically, gay men and culture are so confusing and needlessly dramatic and dualistic.

I just don't get it.

 

[Uberpod]

Just like you have masculine girls and feminine men who are heterosexual.

So to me the butch/femme categorization based on sexual orientation is irrelevant. Sexual orientation (who you love) and sexual expression (how you look like) are two different things.

Two different things that are quite highly correlated.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Butch dykes look nothing to me like men. They look like women with short hair who don't bother wearing make-up. Having been a straight woman with short hair who didn't bother with make-up for many years, I was never once mistaken for a man. I had no trouble picking straight men up, either.

Got a funny story - my lesbian friend used to cut her own hair. It was a funky, cropped metrosexual style pretty typical of a certain segment of London queer women. Her 12 year old nephew needed a hair cut one day and she offered. After the cut, he took one look in the mirror and burst into tears. "WAH! You made me look like a lesbian!"

Lol. That story always cracks me up.

Anyway, just goes to show - something or other. :yes:

I'm a trans guy. What I mean, I suppose, is that some of them don't look any different from trans guys who aren't on hormones who have a really masculine look. I have in mind one in particular who is a huge anti-trans bigot radfem butch lesbian ( ) who could pass as a guy.

Now I also know a butch lesbian from the LGBT community center here that I've done volunteer work at who is what I think of as a "classic" '50s butch. She cussed like a sailor and smoked like a chimney. Short, cropped hair with men's slacks and shirts. She was so cool. But she wouldn't be mistaken for a man. Kind of similar to the style of Chloe Sevigny's (<3) character in If These Walls Could Talk 2 but heavyset and older.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If it makes you feel any better, as someone who identifies as a gay male biologically, gay men and culture are so confusing and needlessly dramatic and dualistic.

I just don't get it.

Yeah, it does get a bit confusing. Lol. I'm all for gender bending, though.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

There's no small amount of facetiousness in there. It's a response to comments like "you're gay? really? I never would have guessed". On a non-facetious note, to me it's just someone who doesn't define himself as being gay first and foremost. He just goes about living his life.

Ah, fair enough. I just hope that more and more people realize that having one sexual orientation or another doesn't mean that you'll look or act a certain way. There's a lot of fem straight guys, too, for example.

 

[Uberpod]

There's a lot of fem straight guys, too, for example.

I agree that they exist, but disagree that there are lots. How do you distinguish between an effeminate straight man from a closeted effeminate gay man?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I agree that they exist, but disagree that there are lots. How do you distinguish between an effeminate straight man from a closeted effeminate gay man?

No, there's lots. There's whole subcultures of guys like that.

One is in the closet and one isn't? I'm sorry, but the question doesn't mean much.

 

[Alceste]

I agree that they exist, but disagree that there are lots. How do you distinguish between an effeminate straight man from a closeted effeminate gay man?

Er, the effeminate straight man likes women and the effeminate gay man likes men. Is it really that hard to figure out?

 

[Alceste]

No, there's lots. There's whole subcultures of guys like that.

One is in the closet and one isn't? I'm sorry, but the question doesn't mean much.

I think maybe he's worried that effeminate looking men might try to sex him up. Little does he know, he should be watching out for bikers and yuppies!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I think maybe he's worried that effeminate looking men might try to sex him up. Little does he know, he should be watching out for bikers and yuppies!

Lol! Could be. He may want advice on how to tell the difference, but there really isn't a hard and fast rule about that. You can't really tell what orientation someone has just by looking at them. There's always exceptions. Plus, it can be rude or even dangerous to label a person a certain way due to how they look. A lot of people have gotten bashed over their gender expression and people using it to assume that they are homosexual.

It just struck me as funny that he would say that there's not a lot of straight men who are fem. Right off the top of my head, I can think of the goth, deathrock, post-hardcore/emo and visual kei subcultures where the guys involved tend to be to the fem side, if not full-on androgynous, and most of them are straight (much to my chagrin, I'll tell you, lol).

 

[Alceste]

Lol! Could be. He may want advice on how to tell the difference, but there really isn't a hard and fast rule about that. You can't really tell what orientation someone has just by looking at them. There's always exceptions. Plus, it can be rude or even dangerous to label a person a certain way due to how they look. A lot of people have gotten bashed over their gender expression and people using it to assume that they are homosexual.

It just struck me as funny that he would say that there's not a lot of straight men who are fem. Right off the top of my head, I can think of the goth, deathrock, post-hardcore/emo and visual kei subcultures where the guys involved tend to be to the fem side, if not full-on androgynous, and most of them are straight (much to my chagrin, I'll tell you, lol).

Fact is, you don't really NEED to be able to tell the difference unless you're interested in the person, sexually. Otherwise, who cares? You're not banging them either way.

I've never quite understood why straight men are so weird about that. It's like they're terrified of getting hit on by someone they're not attracted to. Welcome to every day of a woman's entire life! Lol.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Fact is, you don't really NEED to be able to tell the difference unless you're interested in the person, sexually. Otherwise, who cares? You're not banging them either way.

I've never quite understood why straight men are so weird about that. It's like they're terrified of getting hit on by someone they're not attracted to. Welcome to every day of a woman's entire life! Lol.

That's a good point. Lol. I would love to know if there's a difference because I am interested in guys like that and don't want to mistakenly hit on a straight guy. Lmao.

It's really just homophobia and insecurity. They're afraid of being hit on by a person who has a penis because I guess they secretly like it but don't want to seem gay. If they were secure in their sexuality, they would just brush it off and move on.

 

[Alceste]

That's a good point. Lol. I would love to know if there's a difference because I am interested in guys like that and don't want to mistakenly hit on a straight guy. Lmao.

It's really just homophobia and insecurity. They're afraid of being hit on by a person who has a penis because I guess they secretly like it but don't want to seem gay. If they were secure in their sexuality, they would just brush it off and move on.

If there is a difference, it's too subtle for me. I usually have to know a man for a while before I figure out which way he swings.

another funny story I'm not sure will be easy to follow, but here goes. My husband went to my cousin's party. So far, so good. I had a gig and couldn't make it, so he turned up with another one of my cousins. Let's call him Joe. Joe's a college age hipster. Say no more. My husband is big and beardy, mid-thirties.

Neither Joe or my husband (Bob) know any of the other guests.

So the party throwing cousin - let's call him Leo - as soon as they walk through the door, yells "Hey everybody, this is my cousin Joe and my cousin's partner Bob".

Bob spent the rest of the night wondering why everyone was acting awkward around him, and Joe struck out all night with the ladies. They figured it out hours later.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If there is a difference, it's too subtle for me. I usually have to know a man for a while before I figure out which way he swings.

My mom and I like to try to "clock" people we see in the media and on the street as being gay or not. We like to think we're good at being able to tell and I guess we kind of are due to the large amount of gay queens we've known. Lol. But then I tease my mom by saying that she just thinks that everyone is gay except for her. Lol.

another funny story I'm not sure will be easy to follow, but here goes. My husband went to my cousin's party. So far, so good. I had a gig and couldn't make it, so he turned up with another one of my cousins. Let's call him Joe. Joe's a college age hipster. Say no more. My husband is big and beardy, mid-thirties.

Neither Joe or my husband (Bob) know any of the other guests.

So the party throwing cousin - let's call him Leo - as soon as they walk through the door, yells "Hey everybody, this is my cousin Joe and my cousin's partner Bob".

Bob spent the rest of the night wondering why everyone was acting awkward around him, and Joe struck out all night with the ladies. They figured it out hours later.

Hahaha. Why did Leo think Joe was gay?