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Exclusive Islam

Huey09

He who struggles with God
Let me first say I am not trolling against Islam I have a deep admiration for its goals and ideal of modesty, sobriety, and faithfulness. However, I am disturbed at what I concieve to be hypocrisy of who gets into paradise. Muslims are very quick to point out that christians say no one can enter heaven without being christian. On this I agree with them many christians do hold this idea(not all) but many. But the idea of jews saying only they will find heaven is ridiculous. The Jews I have met only say to believe in One God only will find the afterlife. I admit this isn''t perfect either but gives you and idea of how broadly they think. The Quran says those who believe in God and the day of judgement will be saved. What of the pantheist or non judgement day philosphy of the east? What if I have heard the "message" and decide its not for me? why should I or anyone be damned because I lack the interest to convert? And why is it the Quran and muslim are the only ones who are in connection to what God wants? Is that not the same preteniousness they accuse the jews of?

Sorry if sound like I'm ranting I just have many, many question and so VERY few muslim in my city to ask.
 

seeking4truth

Active Member
Muslims are like anyone else or any other group - many different interpretations.
To me, an Ahmadi Musliim, it seems that at rock bottom all religions teach the same things. ie. believe in God and be good to your fellow man.
Each religion details how to express that belief and how to be good to your fellow man.

I think that as each religion was founded over time some people accepted and some rejected the teachings. Each time those who stuck with the old ways said 'this is the way'.
I think they are right - at the time the religion was founded it was the best way but as society became more complex more detailed guidance was sent by God and corrections to misunderstandings were taught.
The danger is that we see every religion as different because of the details and miss the similarities.

Who 'gets in'? Only God can answer that, only He knows all the reasons and pressures that make us choose our way of life.

In my opinion paradise is the spiritual state of knowing God and living in peaceful harmony with His creation according to His advice. That's what Islam/Peace means.
 

Huey09

He who struggles with God
Muslims are like anyone else or any other group - many different interpretations.
To me, an Ahmadi Musliim, it seems that at rock bottom all religions teach the same things. ie. believe in God and be good to your fellow man.
Each religion details how to express that belief and how to be good to your fellow man.

I agree although that also sounds like bahai teachings as well.

I think that as each religion was founded over time some people accepted and some rejected the teachings. Each time those who stuck with the old ways said 'this is the way'.
I think they are right - at the time the religion was founded it was the best way but as society became more complex more detailed guidance was sent by God and corrections to misunderstandings were taught.
The danger is that we see every religion as different because of the details and miss the similarities.

But that's what most abrahmic religions do. Explicitly empahsize those differences and treat those who think differently as outsiders and dangerous.

Who 'gets in'? Only God can answer that, only He knows all the reasons and pressures that make us choose our way of life.

And people are very quick to speak on his "Word" on in and who's out.

In my opinion paradise is the spiritual state of knowing God and living in peaceful harmony with His creation according to His advice. That's what Islam/Peace means.

I can concur with that opinion. and let's hope others can come to see that in time instead of trying to hoard the "truth" to ourselves regardless of creed.
 
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Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
Let me first say I am not trolling against Islam I have a deep admiration for its goals and ideal of modesty, sobriety, and faithfulness. However, I am disturbed at what I concieve to be hypocrisy of who gets into paradise. Muslims are very quick to point out that christians say no one can enter heaven without being christian. On this I agree with them many christians do hold this idea(not all) but many. But the idea of jews saying only they will find heaven is ridiculous. The Jews I have met only say to believe in One God only will find the afterlife. I admit this isn''t perfect either but gives you and idea of how broadly they think. The Quran says those who believe in God and the day of judgement will be saved. What of the pantheist or non judgement day philosphy of the east? What if I have heard the "message" and decide its not for me? why should I or anyone be damned because I lack the interest to convert? And why is it the Quran and muslim are the only ones who are in connection to what God wants? Is that not the same preteniousness they accuse the jews of?

Sorry if sound like I'm ranting I just have many, many question and so VERY few muslim in my city to ask.

I remember reading on the gates to Heaven. One of them was specifically mentioned by the Promised Messiah (as) as being purely through the attribute of Allah (swt) known as (Al-Rahim) The Most Merciful. This is the door you are wondering about. Here is where even the undeserving people can enter heaven purely out of Allah's all encompassing mercy.
 

Huey09

He who struggles with God
I remember reading on the gates to Heaven. One of them was specifically mentioned by the Promised Messiah (as) as being purely through the attribute of Allah (swt) known as (Al-Rahim) The Most Merciful. This is the door you are wondering about. Here is where even the undeserving people can enter heaven purely out of Allah's all encompassing mercy.

What do you mean by "undeserving?"
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
What do you mean by "undeserving?"

Those who are not worthy of heaven by their acts alone. It could be that God grants them forgiveness and lets them enter heaven.

Also for those who were never given the opportunity to find the right path due to circumstances in their life would also belong to this category.

I will try to find something better written with more clarity. I am not so good at explaining such concepts.
 

Huey09

He who struggles with God
It is fine. The word "undeserving" just seemed to come off with an air of superiority that I am catuious against. But its fine I stumble with my words as well.
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
It is fine. The word "undeserving" just seemed to come off with an air of superiority that I am catuious against. But its fine I stumble with my words as well.

The confusion is also in the fact that if Allah (swt) considers the person deserving then it is hard to say undeserving. The point is that any person regardless of their beliefs whether they are Muslim, Agnostic, Jewish, Buddhist, or Christian can become deserving of Heaven even though it may appear that they are not.

I want to keep it very clear that nobody has exclusive access to Heaven. Those who Allah (swt) chooses as worthy gain access to Heaven.

The point is that you will be judged fairly. For example if somebody was never introduced to Islam and remained on the teachings his or her parents then how can they be held accountable by a just God?

Then there are those who are introduced to Islam and only held back out of fears others, then those people may still come under the Mercy of Allah (swt). But those who come under fear of other and then willingly oppose Islam through spreading hate and falsehood would only enter Heaven after they repent.

Then also there are those who got introduced to Islam but unfortunately it was not conveyed to them properly or they were given a bad experience that held them back. Again, these people did not reject the truth of Islam but what was presented to them might have been different from the teachings of the Holy Prophet (saw) that was branded as Islam.

If you have time I would refer you to the book: Philosophy of Teachings of Islam, it would clarify the concept of Heaven and Hell from Quranic perspective then what I am conveying would make much more sense.
 
If you hear the message (Islam), and you willingly reject it, then yes, as far as what has been indicated, you would go to hell. You may have done good things in your life (that would determine what level of hell you may reside in, obviously some are worst than others), otherwise, you go to hell for openly rejecting your Creator.

Of course, there is leeway for people that may be tested on Judgement day, like;

- Children
- Mentally ill
- Basically, people who can't really comprehend the very basic and simple message of Islam properly.
- People who live in the south pole that have never heard of Islam
- People, who due to various circumstances - their only information of Islam has been distorted and thus never had the fair chance to a source to learn the truth of it.

The above is just touching the surface, which I don't believe exists in Christianity (correct me if I'm wrong).

But either way, It seems fair to me. The issue is, you think your purpose in this life was to just live a good life, which is completely untrue. Good deeds may reduce your time in hell (since, there may be some sins that you still have to face justice for) and take you to a higher level of paradise (again, paradise has various levels, with one being better than the other), but your whole purpose since the day you were born has always been to search for the truth and acknowledge your Creator - that's what gets you in paradise.

The Jews I have met only say to believe in One God only will find the afterlife.

The afterlife isn't described much in Judaism, and I don't think Jews focus much on it either. I also don't think you can exactly convert to Judaism, as it's a group for the "chosen one's - Jews" (implying exclusiveness through bloodline/clan) that go to a special place, whilst the Non-jews go to the same place but at a lower level. - Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe there's may different views in Judaism regarding it.

And why is it the Quran and muslim are the only ones who are in connection to what God wants? Is that not the same preteniousness they accuse the jews of?

Not at all. As mentioend above, Jews are an exclusive group, whilst anyone, regardless of who they are or what their background is, can be a Muslim. By definition, the whole of nature, the planets, the moon, the sun etc. are Muslim.

You need to understand what a "Muslim" is. It's just a 7th century definition to describe (as a verb) one who wilfully Submits to God (the One True God that is). Otherwise, "Muslims" (in the definition of it) have been around since the beginning of mankind, since the very first man - Adam(عليه الصلاة والسلام). It's the same for "Islam", just a 7th century word, but this "way of life" has existed since humanity began.

As people kept drifting away from "Islam" - God kept sending messengers, calling people back to Islam and being Muslims (at that time, it may not have been called "Muslim" or "Islam"). The Prophet Muhammad(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was the seal of these messengers, with the final warning and reestablishment of Islam for mankind.

Being a Muslim isn't difficult, it's an open door that anyone is free to enter upon their own will. And anyone that is Muslim, is bound to one day enter into Paradise - there's no restrictions like "God's kingdom is forbidden for homosexuals" (like in Christianity) etc.
 
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TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Let me first say I am not trolling against Islam I have a deep admiration for its goals and ideal of modesty, sobriety, and faithfulness. However, I am disturbed at what I concieve to be hypocrisy of who gets into paradise. Muslims are very quick to point out that christians say no one can enter heaven without being christian. On this I agree with them many christians do hold this idea(not all) but many. But the idea of jews saying only they will find heaven is ridiculous. The Jews I have met only say to believe in One God only will find the afterlife. I admit this isn''t perfect either but gives you and idea of how broadly they think. The Quran says those who believe in God and the day of judgement will be saved. What of the pantheist or non judgement day philosphy of the east? What if I have heard the "message" and decide its not for me? why should I or anyone be damned because I lack the interest to convert? And why is it the Quran and muslim are the only ones who are in connection to what God wants? Is that not the same preteniousness they accuse the jews of?

Sorry if sound like I'm ranting I just have many, many question and so VERY few muslim in my city to ask.

Welcome to Islam DIR. Your have quiet valid and very interesting questions. I'm about to go to bed and my head is a bit spinning, lol, so i think it's a sign that i need to sleep right now. I'll come back to voice some thoughts about your post soon hopefully. :)
 

seeking4truth

Active Member
I think we have to stop and think what we mean by heaven/Paradise.

Although these are described as places I wonder if they are allegorical. Is spiritual life the same as physical life ie. it needs a place?

We know that time has no meaning in 'the next life' ie spiritual life after this physical phase. Maybe place has no meaning either.

Like earth, I think heaven is the same place as hell. Some people live life here in 'hell' and some in 'heaven' - it depends on your spiritual state. Some wealthy, well provided for people live in 'hell while some poor, persecuted people live in heaven. It seems to depend on spiritual condition not physical condition.

The Holy Quran says 'those who believe and do good' will be rewarded so it seems these are the two basic criteria and these I find in all religions.

My mother did not believe in God and couldn't understand my belief. I often wonder if when she died and knew the truth if she would be in 'hell' realising she had misunderstood during her life here; not a physical place but a state of mind and an undeveloped spirit.
 

Huey09

He who struggles with God
If you hear the message (Islam), and you willingly reject it, then yes, as far as what has been indicated, you would go to hell. You may have done good things in your life (that would determine what level of hell you may reside in, obviously some are worst than others), otherwise, you go to hell for openly rejecting your Creator.

How am I rejecting him if I don't accept a certain philosophy? That sounds as extreme as catholocism which say "If you're not catholic your cut off from God":facepalm:

Of course, there is leeway for people that may be tested on Judgement day, like;

- Children
- Mentally ill
- Basically, people who can't really comprehend the very basic and simple message of Islam properly.
- People who live in the south pole that have never heard of Islam
- People, who due to various circumstances - their only information of Islam has been distorted and thus never had the fair chance to a source to learn the truth of it.

The above is just touching the surface, which I don't believe exists in Christianity (correct me if I'm wrong).

The first and last vary from extreme demonination to liberal denomination but the others everyone says they'll get in.

But either way, It seems fair to me. The issue is, you think your purpose in this life was to just live a good life, which is completely untrue. Good deeds may reduce your time in hell (since, there may be some sins that you still have to face justice for) and take you to a higher level of paradise (again, paradise has various levels, with one being better than the other), but your whole purpose since the day you were born has always been to search for the truth and acknowledge your Creator - that's what gets you in paradise.

It seems fair to most religious people that their demonination is right because its their religion all christians are fine with everyone else burning in hell because theyr'e not going And your logic confuses me. So if a pagan was pacifist,the greatest humanitarian that means nothing and he'll just burn:areyoucra But someone was born into a good muslim family and causes misery and pain but asks for his creator's forgiveness and acknowledges him he ok to go?:facepalm:

The afterlife isn't described much in Judaism, and I don't think Jews focus much on it either. I also don't think you can exactly convert to Judaism, as it's a group for the "chosen one's - Jews" (implying exclusiveness through bloodline/clan) that go to a special place, whilst the Non-jews go to the same place but at a lower level. - Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe there's may different views in Judaism regarding it.

No you can actually become a jew its been that way since they first started. Its really that you don't have to go through all the educational process if you already have jewish blood in line. Because then becoming a jew is redundant like having muslim parent and converting to islam you already are.


Not at all. As mentioend above, Jews are an exclusive group, whilst anyone, regardless of who they are or what their background is, can be a Muslim. By definition, the whole of nature, the planets, the moon, the sun etc. are Muslim.

Again anyone can become a jew through study of the faith and their religious culture. They actually say that non jews have it easier to get in to heaven then they do because they acknowledge the covenant and are extra culpable for their sins.

You need to understand what a "Muslim" is. It's just a 7th century definition to describe (as a verb) one who wilfully Submits to God (the One True God that is). Otherwise, "Muslims" (in the definition of it) have been around since the beginning of mankind, since the very first man - Adam(عليه الصلاة والسلام). It's the same for "Islam", just a 7th century word, but this "way of life" has existed since humanity began.

By whose account? And please don't say the quran because it doesn't help me understand in the same way christians point to the bible for proof.

As people kept drifting away from "Islam" - God kept sending messengers, calling people back to Islam and being Muslims (at that time, it may not have been called "Muslim" or "Islam"). The Prophet Muhammad(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was the seal of these messengers, with the final warning and reestablishment of Islam for mankind.

What happens when people turn away from Islam the same way as the rest of the previous faiths? Because the condition of the Middle East is I think far from how Muhammad wanted them to behave.

Being a Muslim isn't difficult, it's an open door that anyone is free to enter upon their own will. And anyone that is Muslim, is bound to one day enter into Paradise - there's no restrictions like "God's kingdom is forbidden for homosexuals" (like in Christianity) etc.
No but then islam like the other abrahmic faiths considers them an abomination of nature which makes you wonder why you would want to go to a heaven where they call you a monster?
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
The afterlife isn't described much in Judaism, and I don't think Jews focus much on it either. I also don't think you can exactly convert to Judaism, as it's a group for the "chosen one's - Jews" (implying exclusiveness through bloodline/clan) that go to a special place, whilst the Non-jews go to the same place but at a lower level. - Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe there's may different views in Judaism regarding it.

You certainly can convert to Judaism, it just tends to take a while. I converted after studying with my rabbi for about a year.

As for the afterlife, you are right in saying that there are many different views, but I can't say that I've ever heard one that claims all non-Jews go somewhere else. Typically, the World to Come (however one understands it) is seen as the destination of all who are "righteous".

But the afterlife does tend to take a backseat in Judaism; as a religion, it focuses much more on ethical living rather than what happens after we die.
 

Dingbat

Avatar of Brittania
But the afterlife does tend to take a backseat in Judaism; as a religion, it focuses much more on ethical living rather than what happens after we die.

As it should in all Faiths in my humble opinion. Focusing on the afterlife was a massive turnoff for me in regards to many of the Christian sects.
 

seeking4truth

Active Member
"No but then islam like the other abrahmic faiths considers them an abomination of nature"

'them' are you sure? Isn't it the act which is condemned.

Remember adultery and fornication are also condemned. ie. misplaced sexual activity is what is an abomination.
Sexual bonds should be what binds parents and creates families, the building blocks of society.
The other actions break or weaken those bonds, as we see too mcuh these days.

 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
No but then islam like the other abrahmic faiths considers them an abomination of nature which makes you wonder why you would want to go to a heaven where they call you a monster?

Actually Islam has taught that one day Hell would be empty. Its philosophy also teaches that Hell and Heaven are essentially in the same place. It is the perspective of the person which makes him suffer in Hell or enjoy Paradise.

Hence everyone will one day everyone (regardless of what they were in this World) will heal through letting go of worldly passions which are not found in the afterlife and move towards love of God which is a passion that can be fulfilled in the afterlife. Through recovery those who were not granted paradise will enter paradise by letting go of their Worldly Passions in exchange for the love of God.

But what is the meaning of heavenly bliss, the tortures of the fire of hell? In answer to this question, the Promised Messiah (as) has illustrated the issue in the following terms: If a man is almost dying of thirst, and is otherwise healthy, cool water can provide him such deeply satisfying pleasure as cannot be derived from the ordinary experience of drinking water, or even the most delicious drink of his choice. If a man is thirsty and hungry as well, and he needs an immediate source of energy, a chilled bunch of grapes can provide him with such deep satisfaction as is not experienced by the same in ordinary circumstances. But the pre-requisite for these pleasures is good health. Now visualise a very sick man, who is nauseating and trying to vomit whatever liquid is left in him, and is at the verge of death through dehydration. Offer him a glass of cool water, or a chilled bunch of grapes, then not to mention his accepting them, a mere glance of them would create a state of revulsion and absolute abhorrence in him.

In illustrations like these, the Promised Messiah (as) made it clear that hell and heaven are only issues of relativity. A healthy soul which has acquired the taste for good things, when brought into close proximity of the objects of its choice, will draw even greater pleasure than before. All that a healthy spiritual man was craving was nearness to God and His attributes and to imitate divine virtues. In heaven, such a healthy soul would begin to see and conceive and feel the nearness of the attributes of God like never before. They, according to the Promised Messiah, would not remain merely spiritual values, but would acquire ethereal forms and shapes, which the newly born heavenly spirit would enjoy with the help of the erstwhile soul, which would function as the body. That again would be a matter of relativity. The converse will be true of hell, in the sense that an unhealthy soul would create an unhealthy body for the new soul of the hereafter. And the same factors which provide pleasure to the healthy soul would provide torture and deep suffering for this unhealthy entity. (An Elementary Study of Islam, Mirza Tahir Ahmad)
 

Huey09

He who struggles with God
"No but then islam like the other abrahmic faiths considers them an abomination of nature"

'them' are you sure? Isn't it the act which is condemned.

Them yes sorry I misplaced a word. But then that means homosexuals must be celibate their entire lives.:sarcastic And isn't Islam against/not reccomend celibacy?
 

Huey09

He who struggles with God
Actually Islam has taught that one day Hell would be empty. Its philosophy also teaches that Hell and Heaven are essentially in the same place. It is the perspective of the person which makes him suffer in Hell or enjoy Paradise.

In all my time researching the religion this was not one of the schools of thought I've heard. To many Sunni I have met, the people who burn in hell, stay there. And only a tiny portion would be scooped out of Hell out of Allah's charity.For many others I've met they say everyone not in the One God idea just burn:cover:. Also many to many muslims I know hell is a physical place and very painful full of agony, suffering all that depressing stuff. But then again all I know are Sunni from Eygpt so they might a bit bias.
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
Actually Islam has taught that one day Hell would be empty. Its philosophy also teaches that Hell and Heaven are essentially in the same place. It is the perspective of the person which makes him suffer in Hell or enjoy Paradise.

In all my time researching the religion this was not one of the schools of thought I've heard. To many Sunni I have met, the people who burn in hell, stay there. And only a tiny portion would be scooped out of Hell out of Allah's charity.For many others I've met they say everyone not in the One God idea just burn:cover:. Also many to many muslims I know hell is a physical place and very painful full of agony, suffering all that depressing stuff. But then again all I know are Sunni from Eygpt so they might a bit bias.

There was a discussion on this topic on RF. I believe on the idea that Hell would eventually be empty there are a few others of the same opinion. There is a particular Hadith that speak about the last person to leave Hell and enter Heaven. Moreover, from the concept of Heaven and Hell which Quran explains to begin in this life it is clear that it is a journey. Eventually Allah(swt) will guide everyone to Heaven.

Heaven and Hell are places where you will not have the same physical body as here. It is not in our faculty to understand what form we will exactly be in. From my understanding our soul will develop in this life and this soul will form the body of the hereafter. So a healthy soul gives rise to a healthy body and a unhealthy soul gives rise to an unhealthy body. I would refer you to the book I linked earlier if you are interested in understanding these concepts from the Holy Quran.
 
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