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Except the LORD Build the House

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
The 'death of self' is called overcoming the nafs in Islamic Sufism and by other names in Hinduism, Buddhism and Judaism.

My belief is that the Christ, Avatar in India has come again and again both known historically and unknown. Jesus to me is one time he came.

Those that seek to overcome their lower self through love of Jesus are not wrong in doing so. And that's equally true for those who seek to do the same through other religions.
But, can other religions legitimately claim that their leader offers them a way out of sin and death?
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
But, can other religions legitimately claim that their leader offers them a way out of sin and death?

Those are Christian concepts but the answer is yes when thought of in terms of other religions.

For example, the Baal Shem Tov echoed the 2nd greatest commandment of Christianity: "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Why? Because every human being has a root in the Unity, and to reject the minutest particle of the Unity is to reject it all.”
(and)
"If a man accepts everything that happens to him in this world with love, then he will have both the physical world and also the higher world of the soul."


And a poem of Rumi's echoes Psalm 46:10 "Be still and know that I am God": The start of this poem (ode 1897) is:

A guide has entered this life in silence.
His message is only heard in silence.

Take a sip of his precious wine
and lose yourself.
Don't insult the greatness of his love,
for he helps all those who suffer, in silence.






 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Those are Christian concepts but the answer is yes when thought of in terms of other religions.

For example, the Baal Shem Tov echoed the 2nd greatest commandment of Christianity: "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Why? Because every human being has a root in the Unity, and to reject the minutest particle of the Unity is to reject it all.”
(and)
"If a man accepts everything that happens to him in this world with love, then he will have both the physical world and also the higher world of the soul."

And a poem of Rumi's echoes Psalm 46:10 "Be still and know that I am God": The start of this poem (ode 1897) is:

A guide has entered this life in silence.
His message is only heard in silence.

Take a sip of his precious wine
and lose yourself.
Don't insult the greatness of his love,
for he helps all those who suffer, in silence.





Is sin an exclusively Christian concept? If that were true then no one would ever need to repent.

I believe that the Spirit of love makes a person conscious of sin. This means ANYONE can be convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Does being born again make it easier, or is it a necessary requirement for entry into the kingdom of God? I'm inclined to think the latter is the truth. (John 3:5)

Born-Again, in my understanding, is the result of coming into the Kingdom of God. We return to the full authority that Adam had before he sinned. As you said, it is a requirement.

As l understand the Hebrew scriptures, Abraham was a man of faith, and we are to follow in faith according to his covenant with God. The covenant made with Moses, a covenant of law, was not based on faith but on (re)action, and was necessary because of disobedience. Under Moses, the prophet delivered God's laws, and the people were required to follow the law to the letter...all the laws. The law didn't require a man to show faith, but to obey. If you obeyed, you received the blessings promised by God, and if you disobeyed you suffered the curses of disobedience.

Therefore, the only way for Israel to be saved (living in safety and peace in their land) was for the whole congregation to please God by corporately fulfilling the law in outward action.

The basics of what you are saying here is true in our Christian understanding.

Abraham was the door of faith so that "all nations will be blessed", both Jews and Gentiles. As you noted, the law came through Moses. As stated in Deuteronomy, if they follow the commandments they would be blessed and if they didn't, it would open the door to curses.

Grace and mercy was still there through the shedding of blood, but those were shadows of Jesus for those who believe. (Heb 10). In addition, those who believed in the coming of the Messiah (even during the law of Moses) were kept in Paradise until Jesus paid the price for sin.

know that Hebrews 11 points us to the great men of faith, such as Moses and Joshua, but these men of faith proved to be the exception in lsrael, not the norm. Were they not the ones who heard the voice of God and told the masses how to act? The typical Israelite did not hear God's voice, but he did know the difference between a blessing and a curse. So, his behaviour was manipulated by pain and pleasure, the 'carrot and stick'. Acting out of obligation is what this kind of religion entails.

Yes... the only three types of people were anointed by God's Holy Spirit. The priests, the kings and the prophets. Not sure I would use the 'carrot and stick' analogy... but that is just preference.


The Holy Spirit allows us, l believe, to know the Lord in the Spirit of love, creating a relationship that is better than the one that is founded solely on law and justice. The fear of the Lord is, l believe, just the 'beginning of wisdom'.

Actually, when you are born-again, Holy Spirit comes to live inside of a new temple made by God's hands... our spirits. He confirms we are children of God, certainly makes us know we are loved, accepted and connected to God. We are now led, not by the letter of the law, but by Holy Spirit.

Great post.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Is this not what every Jew is required to do? What makes your walk different from a 'Torah' Jew?

I believe Torah Jews would be better to answer to that. In Biblical point of view there should be no difference in between a Jew and a “Christian”. But, perhaps the greatest difference is commonly that for a disciple of Jesus (“Christian”), it is not really a requirement, but something that person wants to do freely, because he loves God.

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:3

I think God’s commandments are good and for the best of people. They are not given as burden. They are a guide for good life, in my opinion, and I think God is good, because He gave them and that is also why I want to keep them.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
But, can other religions legitimately claim that their leader offers them a way out of sin and death?
I think the difference is that other religions offer a way out by works where one works his/her way up the ladder (so to speak). Our story is that God came down to do what we could not do by works.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I believe Torah Jews would be better to answer to that. In Biblical point of view there should be no difference in between a Jew and a “Christian”. But, perhaps the greatest difference is commonly that for a disciple of Jesus (“Christian”), it is not really a requirement, but something that person wants to do freely, because he loves God.

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:3

I think God’s commandments are good and for the best of people. They are not given as burden. They are a guide for good life, in my opinion, and I think God is good, because He gave them and that is also why I want to keep them.
I can understand you wanting to keep the commandments of God. But do you keep them without the Holy Spirit leading you?
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Is sin an exclusively Christian concept? If that were true then no one would ever need to repent.
.

Sin is certainly a concept in all the Abrahamic religions: Christianity, Islam and Judaism.

Dharmic religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism have a different concept. In these religions there is a concept of sowing and reaping (karma) where there are automatic consequences to negative (and positive) action. So in the sense of positive action brings positive results and negative action brings negative results, all the religions have the same basic idea.

I believe that the Spirit of love makes a person conscious of sin.
Here I agree. The more one truly loves the more one becomes conscious of one's own imperfections and the more the spirit of repentance automatically grows.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Sin is certainly a concept in all the Abrahamic religions: Christianity, Islam and Judaism.

Dharmic religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism have a different concept. In these religions there is a concept of sowing and reaping (karma) where there are automatic consequences to negative (and positive) action. So in the sense of positive action brings positive results and negative action brings negative results, all the religions have the same basic idea.


Here I agree. The more one truly loves the more one becomes conscious of one's own imperfections and the more the spirit of repentance automatically grows.
If a person consists of good and bad, the composition is luke warm. I think God, who is perfect in judgment, spits out anything that is luke warm. Why should God allow his kingdom to be polluted by sin?
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
If a person consists of good and bad, the composition is luke warm. I think God, who is perfect in judgment, spits out anything that is luke warm. Why should God allow his kingdom to be polluted by sin?

Have you ever met someone in the flesh that has zero "bad" in him or her; someone who became perfection personified in the flesh?

But the heart of the discussion appears to be that I don't believe in a cruel, judgemental God who "spits out" souls.

The God I believe in is all loving, all merciful and because of His love allows souls to learn fully the consequences of their deeds and move ever closer to the Divine.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Have you ever met someone in the flesh that has zero "bad" in him or her; someone who became perfection personified in the flesh?

But the heart of the discussion appears to be that I don't believe in a cruel, judgemental God who "spits out" souls.

The God I believe in is all loving, all merciful and because of His love allows souls to learn fully the consequences of their deeds and move ever closer to the Divine.
I also believe in a loving God.

The thing about Jesus, is that he was perfect. Therefore we don't have to be perfect in our own works; we just have to have faith in the perfection and love of Christ. He's done the hard part.

We also know that God was pleased with the life and sacrifice of Jesus because God raised him from the dead. Which other leader of religion can make this claim with any veracity?
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I also believe in a loving God.

The thing about Jesus, is that he was perfect. Therefore we don't have to be perfect in our own works; we just have to have faith in the perfection and love of Christ. He's done the hard part.

We also know that God was pleased with the life and sacrifice of Jesus because God raised him from the dead. Which other leader of religion can make this claim with any veracity?
My "loving God" does not "spit out" people but loves them as they learn lessons and then go onward toward joy.

Yes, I know Christians believe Jesus arose from the dead. I don't. My belief is that Jesus, as an Avatar of God, took on the suffering of humanity to move humanity forward. His glory is in suffering not in dropping his physical body and then coming back to it.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
My "loving God" does not "spit out" people but loves them as they learn lessons and then go onward toward joy.

Yes, I know Christians believe Jesus arose from the dead. I don't. My belief is that Jesus, as an Avatar of God, took on the suffering of humanity to move humanity forward. His glory is in suffering not in dropping his physical body and then coming back to it.
He didn't come back to his physical body. He was raised in a spiritual body.

The problem with following any leader who is less than perfect is that you cannot hope to enter the kingdom of God through faith in their ways or teachings.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
The problem with following any leader who is less than perfect is that you cannot hope to enter the kingdom of God through faith in their ways or teachings.

All Avatars have been instances of perfection personified: Jesus, Buddha, Krishna - all who taught the same truth adapted to their time and place.

Figures like St. Francis of Assisi, Rumi, Kabir, Ramakrishna and others I take as perfect ones but not Avatars of God.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
All Avatars have been instances of perfection personified: Jesus, Buddha, Krishna - all who taught the same truth adapted to their time and place.

Figures like St. Francis of Assisi, Rumi, Kabir, Ramakrishna and others I take as perfect ones but not Avatars of God.
Having moments of perfection is not the same as walking by God's will and power all of one's life. St. Francis never claimed to be anything less than a sinner saved by God.

One cannot claim that these teachers of religion taught all the same truths. Most taught others to follow a set of laws or rules. Jesus said, Follow me.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Psalm 127:1. 'Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.'

According to your religion and beliefs, is the LORD building 'the house'?
He's building the new Jerusalem as he said "I go to prepare a place for you".

All these houses on earth will be laid low.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
He's building the new Jerusalem as he said "I go to prepare a place for you".

All these houses on earth will be laid low.
Hi,
To my understanding, the body of Christ is God's house. The head of the body, Jesus Christ, has, at this time, complete dominion in both heaven and earth. His body, the Church, both Jew and Gentile, exists on earth until the time of resurrection.

The thousand year reign of Christ on earth occurs after the first resurrection, and allows for the fulfilment of promises made by God to Abram, as in Genesis 15:18.

The new heaven and new earth, occurring, l believe, after the thousand year reign of Christ on earth, offers us a new vision of life without sin.
 
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