Examining the evidence there is of God

[muhammad_isa]

..If it is, there is no need for a creator..

Is there no need for a maintainer, either?
Do you believe in perpetual motion?

 

[A Peripatetic Pediatrician]

I have a question:

The proposition that a transcendent being standing outside time and space exists is inherently not disprovable.

The proposition that there is individual self-consciousness is ALSO inherently not disprovable.

Yet I suspect that only the hardest core positivists would claim there is no self-consciousness. (Note - I mean this concept very differently than that of an organism making claims of self-consciousness, a la Alan Turing.)

I'd love to hear what differences people see in these two "difficulties in proof". ARE they different? The same?

I await the hive-mind's thoughts.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Isn't it amazing how believers within a religion don't see any confusion or contradictions.

Yes, amazing, but baffling as well. I'm convinced it's brainwashing.

 

[CG Didymus]

To you, not me and a actually a majority of humanity. God is not dead, even if a few try to make that a possibility.

All the best with life.

Regards Tony

A large chunk of Christians believe in the trinity, the father, son and holy spirit. Is that God alive or dead? Or... not even real?

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, amazing, but baffling as well. I'm convinced it's brainwashing.

Yes, I went throught it. I gave in to my born-again Christian friends and did the "sinners" prayer, and it felt great and so real. They had an explanation for every apparent contradiction. I kept sayiing, "Yes, that makes sense." But at some point, it didn't. Then none of it made sense.

 

[CG Didymus]

That's not what my experience is.

What I see is that the religions of the world agree is a truth not because the religions of the world are wrong, it's because they're right. In my area virtually all the Baha'i activities are done by people who are members of other religions. It's a non-issue. The fact that I'm an enrolled Baha'i and many are not means nothing to the activities, in fact I envy their talents and effectiveness in what they're able to bring about.

Of course I may be missing something, and I'm open for discussion.

I still think the beliefs of most all religions are wrong and that very possibly were made up by people... not "revealed" by a manifestation. I use the Mormons as a great example of this. Golden plates? The angel Moroni? To me, it's all made up. But... people believe it and take it to heart and apply some of the things taught in the religion and become better people and do a lot of good. So, I think religious beliefs don't have to be true, but they have to be believed to be true to work.

 

[CG Didymus]

Okay, this is open to any Baha'i. The claim is that Muhammad is a manifestation of God... which is supposedly a perfect reflection of God and as a manifestation, he is all we can ever know about God. He, supposedly, is the evidence. All you have to do is give me the Baha'i explanation about Muhammad and his military exploits. Thay aren't true? They're true, but they were justified because it was a righteous cause? What exactly do Baha'is believe about this? Because this is pretty good evidence that he wasn't so pure and wasn't a manifestation. Which then is evidence against the Baha'i Faith being true also.

I've already asked about Adam and the other Bible characters that the Baha'is claim are manifestations of God, but what about Muhammad? How do Baha'is explain his military exploits?
The military career of Muhammad (c. 570 – 8 June 632), the Islamic prophet, encompasses several expeditions and battles throughout the Hejaz region in the western Arabian Peninsula which took place in the final ten years of his life, from 622 to 632. His primary campaign was against his own tribe in Mecca, the Quraysh. Muhammad proclaimed prophethood around 610 and later migrated to Medina after being persecuted by the Quraysh in 622. After several battles against the Quraysh, Muhammad conquered Mecca in 629, ending his campaign against the tribe.

Alongside his campaign against the Quraysh, Muhammad led campaigns against several other tribes of Arabia, most notably the three Arabian Jewish tribes of Medina and the Jewish fortress at Khaybar. He expelled the Banu Qaynuqa tribe for violating the Constitution of Medina in 624, followed by the Banu Nadir who were expelled in May 625 after being accused of plotting to assassinate him. Finally, in 628, he besieged and invaded the Jewish fortress of Khaybar, which hosted more than 10,000 Jews, which Muslim sources say was retaliation for planning to ally themselves with the local Arab pagan tribes.

In the final years of his life, Muhammad sent several armies against the Byzantine Empire and the Ghassanids in northern Arabia and the Levant, before conquering Mecca in 630 and leading a campaign against some Arab pagan tribes close to Mecca, most notably in Ta'if. The last army led by Muhammad before his death was in the Battle of Tabuk in October 630. By his death in 632, Muhammad had managed to unite most of the Arabian Peninsula, laying the foundation for the subsequent Islamic expansion under the caliphates and defining Islamic military jurisprudence.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Yes, I went throught it. I gave in to my born-again Christian friends and did the "sinners" prayer, and it felt great and so real. They had an explanation for every apparent contradiction. I kept sayiing, "Yes, that makes sense." But at some point, it didn't. Then none of it made sense.

I'm a survivor also. But luckily I had several spiritual experiences by the time my parents sent me to "bible study" and lots more experiences by the time they sent me to (YIKES) 3 insufferable years in a Catholic high school, so none of it took hold, as I knew it to be all hogwash because none of it had to do with any true spiritual matters.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thay aren't true? They're true, but they were justified because it was a righteous cause? What exactly do Baha'is believe about this? Because this is pretty good evidence that he wasn't so pure and wasn't a manifestation. Which then is evidence against the Baha'i Faith being true also.

It is nigh on impossible determining these questions now CG. The truth of those conflicts have been tainted in time with both the enemy and misguided believers telling them to suit their agendas.

Baha'u'llah has covered this topic in the Kitab-i-iqan and tells of the Woes faced by Muhammad.

Regards Tony

It is a big topic.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The proposition that a transcendent being standing outside time and space exists is inherently not disprovable.

I would agree that a transcendent being may exist, but I have trouble with the idea of existence outside of time. The word exist implies occupying a series of consecutive instants. If not, how is that different from nonexistence? We're occasionally told that God exists outside of time, where he also thinks and acts as when creating universes. But these are also verbs that imply a before and after state.

The proposition that there is individual self-consciousness is ALSO inherently not disprovable.

I'm not sure what this means. Self-consciousness is self-evident.

And welcome to the site, Ted.

 

[CG Didymus]

It is nigh on impossible determining these questions now CG. The truth of those conflicts have been tainted in time with both the enemy and misguided believers telling them to suit their agendas.

Baha'u'llah has covered this topic in the Kitab-i-iqan and tells of the Woes faced by Muhammad.

Regards Tony

It is a big topic.

So, does Baha'u'llah say Muhammad was justified in taking part in military actions? Which would be similar to the many people in the Bible that were warriors... like Joshua and King David. But is it right for a person that is supposed to be a manifestation of God? If yes, and I don't expect the answer to be anything but a yes, just a short answer will do or a reference to where Baha'u'llah speaks of it. It doesn't have to be a detailed, deep investigation.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, does Baha'u'llah say Muhammad was justified in taking part in military actions? Which would be similar to the many people in the Bible that were warriors... like Joshua and King David. But is it right for a person that is supposed to be a manifestation of God? If yes, and I don't expect the answer to be anything but a yes, just a short answer will do or a reference to where Baha'u'llah speaks of it. It doesn't have to be a detailed, deep investigation.

The Kitab-i-Iqan is the answer Baha'u'llah gave as to all the Messengers CG. I found great meaning in that book.

I highly recommend one reads it and searches for the Spirit behind the Word being offered.

Muhammad represents God. Muhammad carried out God's Will 100%.

So whatever happened, it was God's justice that unfolded.

The thing to remember is that a Messenger does not force believers to follow the commands. The examples I can give, are from what the Bab'i did, that created great suffering for Baha'u'llah and the Bab'i (later Baha'i's) are well worth pondering.

After the Bab was Martyred, as a result of this and other atrocities against the Bab's followers, a couple of Bab'i wanted to assassinate the Shah. Baha'u'llah forbid such and action. We have to remember that they had just converted from Islam where using force in retaliation had become a way of life.

When 3 Bab'i personally chose to go against Baha'u'llah's orders and attempted a poorly planned attempt on the Shah's life, the roth of the Sha's mother exploded in the persecution of tens of thousands of Bab'i, all who were killed in grotesque ways.

So the Bab'i were tainted by stories that did not reflect the Message of the Bab, nor Baha'u'llah, those stories ended up reflecting the error of 3 Bab'i.

So it is for Muhammad. Those apposed to Muhammad would have used transgressions of the followers, as fuel to feed their hate of Muhammad. Likewise as time went on the Faith itself was tainted by war mongers that attributed all this to their faith in Muhammad.

That is all I can really offer. People must search all these for their own selves.

Regards Tony

 

[Pete in Panama]

I still think the beliefs of most all religions are wrong and that very possibly were made up by people... not "revealed" by a manifestation. I use the Mormons as a great example of this. Golden plates? The angel Moroni? To me, it's all made up. But... people believe it and take it to heart and apply some of the things taught in the religion and become better people and do a lot of good. So, I think religious beliefs don't have to be true, but they have to be believed to be true to work.

OK, i understand that you're rethinking what you said--

... If Baha'u'llah is the manifestation for today and has the newest message from God, then most believers in the world today have chosen to believe in something outdated and wrong...

--and that this somehow came across as not what you meant.

Interesting what u said about the Mormons, my take is very much like yours, but they're only about one or two tenths of a percent of the world's population. There are many very good people who are Mormons and I'd be reluctant to disparage their belief system as hard as it is for me to hear about it w/o passing out. That said, lets not confuse them w/ the overwhelming majority of the human race that subscribes to one of the various religious belief systems.

 

[CG Didymus]

Interesting what u said about the Mormons, my take is very much like yours, but they're only about one or two tenths of a percent of the world's population. There are many very good people who are Mormons and I'd be reluctant to disparage their belief system as hard as it is for me to hear about it w/o passing out. That said, lets not confuse them w/ the overwhelming majority of the human race that subscribes to one of the various religious belief systems.

I usually ask Baha'is to name one religion today, other than theirs, that has the correct beliefs and practices. Don't all of them have something wrong? A large percentage of Christianity believes in the trinity and probably most Hindus and Buddhists believe in rebirth/reincarnation. And even Baha'is have the Umayyads and Abbasids and the beast and the dragon in Revelation, so is there even one Islamic sect that Baha'is support as having, teaching and practicing the truth? But I would think not, because they reject Baha'u'llah, so even the best of them falls short.

 

[PearlSeeker]

I'm a survivor also. But luckily I had several spiritual experiences by the time my parents sent me to "bible study" and lots more experiences by the time they sent me to (YIKES) 3 insufferable years in a Catholic high school, so none of it took hold, as I knew it to be all hogwash because none of it had to do with any true spiritual matters.

It's hard to awake from religious indoctrination. Especially if someone has been exposed to it from childhood (like me).

 

[Pete in Panama]

I usually ask Baha'is to name one religion today, other than theirs, that has the correct beliefs and practices. Don't all of them have something wrong? A large percentage of Christianity believes in the trinity and probably most Hindus and Buddhists believe in rebirth/reincarnation. And even Baha'is have the Umayyads and Abbasids and the beast and the dragon in Revelation, so is there even one Islamic sect that Baha'is support as having, teaching and practicing the truth? But I would think not, because they reject Baha'u'llah, so even the best of them falls short.

It's always possible to find something wrong every where we look and something we don't like in anyone we meet. Obsessing w/ what we don't like is not healthy. I go for what I like & I end up in likeable things. Homing in on bad things leads to misery.

Your choice.

 

[joelr]

Is there no need for a maintainer, either?
Do you believe in perpetual motion?

A "maintainer" would also be a perpetual motion, that doesn't fix that issue.
Perpetual motion regards an isolated system. All reality may be infinite or extremely large with a vast amount of energy and is recycling into new universes or dimensions on it's own. There are many self assembling phenomenon in nature and our universe is governed by natural laws and probabilities. The need for a creator or maintainer isn't a thing. Nature as an unconscious thing is fine. We don't need a super king ruling over us.
Nor is there evidence for such a thing. Except in stories, just like the original post says. His evidence is because a book exists that makes a claim.

 

[muhammad_isa]

There are many self assembling phenomenon in nature and our universe is governed by natural laws and probabilities..

..and where do the "natural" laws originate, and what maintains them?

eg. what stops "the sky" falling on us?

 

[CG Didymus]

It's always possible to find something wrong every where we look and something we don't like in anyone we meet. Obsessing w/ what we don't like is not healthy. I go for what I like & I end up in likeable things. Homing in on bad things leads to misery.

Your choice.

But I'm talking about religions.

I usually ask Baha'is to name one religion today, other than theirs, that has the correct beliefs and practices. Don't all of them have something wrong? A large percentage of Christianity believes in the trinity and probably most Hindus and Buddhists believe in rebirth/reincarnation. And even Baha'is have the Umayyads and Abbasids and the beast and the dragon in Revelation, so is there even one Islamic sect that Baha'is support as having, teaching and practicing the truth? But I would think not, because they reject Baha'u'llah, so even the best of them falls short.

Do you and other Baha'is "like" that most Christians believe that Jesus is God? Do Baha'is "like" that many Hindus believe in reincarnation and many Gods?

Can religious "truth" from some other religion, that Baha'is believe is false, be ignored? It doesn't sound like it is ignored by Baha'is. And, if the Baha'is have the newest and real truth about God and what he wants, should the wrong beliefs and teachings of the other religions be ignored? Trouble is... they might not ignore the Baha'i Faith but come right out and say what they believe to be false about it. And that's why we're here... to discuss and debate what is true and what is false about religions and religious beliefs.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do you and other Baha'is "like" that most Christians believe that Jesus is God? Do Baha'is "like" that many Hindus believe in reincarnation and many Gods?

We have an alternative valid understanding of these aspects of faith.

The alternative understanding do not need to prevent us embracing a unity in our diversity.

Regards Tony