Evolutionary advantages of rape in a species

[Alceste]

Not really, competitiveness against predators often grants skills that may be useless against the same-specie individuals. You have to take into account that in most species, males are actually made to surpass same-specie individuals (they are made to compete with other males, but what if they decided to use this skills also against females?). Also there's several animals that have no predators.

Sure, as I said myself, rape often results in a failed copula.

I disagree. Being aware of the threats around you and fast on your feet would be just as handy for evading forced copulation as it would be for evading hungry dogs. You don't need to be the fastest she-duck in the flock, just slightly faster than the slowest she-duck in the flock. The slowest she-duck in the flock is the one that is going to get eaten or attacked by the over-sexed males of her species, so if the copulation results in offspring, the offspring will be incrementally slower / less aware.

 

[jasonwill2]

I was reading a link someone gave me earlier, and this seems to account for some rapes:

It is hypothesized that rape is homologous to similar behavior in other animals. “Human rape appears not as an aberration but as an alternative gene-promotion strategy that is most likely to be adopted by the 'losers' in the competitive, harem-building struggle. If the means of access to legitimate, consenting sex is not available, then a male may be faced with the choice between force or genetic extinction.”[4]

source: Sociobiological theories of rape - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Any thoughts?

 

[Sunstone]

I was reading a link someone gave me earlier, and this seems to account for some rapes:

It is hypothesized that rape is homologous to similar behavior in other animals. “Human rape appears not as an aberration but as an alternative gene-promotion strategy that is most likely to be adopted by the 'losers' in the competitive, harem-building struggle. If the means of access to legitimate, consenting sex is not available, then a male may be faced with the choice between force or genetic extinction.”[4]

source: Sociobiological theories of rape - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Any thoughts?

It would make sense that rape is the reproductive strategy of people who would otherwise be biological losers.

 

[Alceste]

I was reading a link someone gave me earlier, and this seems to account for some rapes:

It is hypothesized that rape is homologous to similar behavior in other animals. “Human rape appears not as an aberration but as an alternative gene-promotion strategy that is most likely to be adopted by the 'losers' in the competitive, harem-building struggle. If the means of access to legitimate, consenting sex is not available, then a male may be faced with the choice between force or genetic extinction.”[4]

source: Sociobiological theories of rape - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Any thoughts?

My thoughts are that if the least desirable males are forcing the weakest females to copulate, that kind of explains why it is an "aberration" in humans (abnormal or unusual). The offspring of such unions would combine the qualities of unattractiveness and weakness, and generally be out-competed by offspring of females who select the best specimen from a large pool of attractive suitors.

 

[jasonwill2]

My thoughts are that if the least desirable males are forcing the weakest females to copulate, that kind of explains why it is an "aberration" in humans (abnormal or unusual). The offspring of such unions would combine the qualities of unattractiveness and weakness, and generally be out-competed by offspring of females who select the best specimen from a large pool of attractive suitors.

But what if the "looser" desires not the weakest woman, but an average or stronger woman? Knowing that the strongest might be too much, and so they take the strongest woman they reasonably can force? And at that, the looser is not the looser because of looks or strength, but because of social ranking?

 

[Alceste]

But what if the "looser" desires not the weakest woman, but an average or stronger woman? Knowing that the strongest might be too much, and so they take the strongest woman they reasonably can force? And at that, the looser is not the looser because of looks or strength, but because of social ranking?

Predators choose victims who look weak, awkward, or unaware. Studies have been done on inmates convicted of violent crime, anything from mugging to serial murder to rape, where they were shown video of various people walking down the street and asked who they would be most likely to attack and why. They chose people with an awkward gait, downcast eyes, people who looked uncomfortable in their own skin. Just as a pack of wolves will try to split off a limping calf from a herd of bison rather than try to bring down the strongest bull, a violent person will look for the target who looks least likely or able to fight back.

If he's the violent type, his "desire" will be either aligned with his preference for weak-looking victims, or irrelevant to his choice of victims. IOW, a rapist might be thinking about Angelina Jolie as he gets himself all worked up, lurking in his dark alleyway, but he's still going to pick Angela Lansbury because there's less chance of failure or personal injury.

Women don't care about social ranking. That's not enough to make you a loser, reproductively speaking.

 

[jasonwill2]

Women don't care about social ranking. That's not enough to make you a loser, reproductively speaking.

Not true, well I guess I was also thinking of a lack of social skills too in there.

As for the rest of what you say, that's only true of two types of rapists, power-reassurance rapist (the most common) and anger rapists.

 

[NIX]

Seems to me you might find it difficult to prove a charge of rape against these apparently inconsiderate male duck lovers. First we would need to establish several points of crucial evidence, such as: What was the she-duck wearing? Had she been drinking? What was her sexual history? Did she do anything the he-duck might reasonably have perceived as flirtatious? Without a detailed and thorough examination into the character and behavior of the she-duck, it would be impossible to determine whether or not she was "asking for it".

hehe.... I still can't frubal you again yet.

 

[Alceste]

Not true, well I guess I was also thinking of a lack of social skills too in there.

As for the rest of what you say, that's only true of two types of rapists, power-reassurance rapist (the most common) and anger rapists.

I didn't know there were "types" of human sexual predators. Maybe a subject for another thread? I don't think it's all that useful to bring deviant human behavior into a thread about duck sex. It's tempting enough as it is to groundlessly anthropomorphize other species' sexual behavior, and not at all productive if we're trying to understand animal behavior from an evolutionary perspective.

 

[jasonwill2]

I didn't know there were "types" of human sexual predators. Maybe a subject for another thread? I don't think it's all that useful to bring deviant human behavior into a thread about duck sex. It's tempting enough as it is to groundlessly anthropomorphize other species' sexual behavior, and not at all productive if we're trying to understand animal behavior from an evolutionary perspective.

Of course there are, such as the Groth types of rapists, but I think I have a book about psychology that documents a couple others in additon to those kinds.

Are you really unaware that there are several distinct pathologies to what makes a rapist want to rape? Rape is somewhat... of an interest of mine, at least intellectually speaking.

 

[Alceste]

Of course there are, such as the Groth types of rapists, but I think I have a book about psychology that documents a couple others in additon to those kinds.

Are you really unaware that there are several distinct pathologies to what makes a rapist want to rape? Rape is somewhat... of an interest of mine, at least intellectually speaking.

Oh my god! Are you saying that this thread was never really about duck rape??? Wow, was I ever fooled!

I've just read up on your Groth categories, and I see nothing in that indicates any "type" of rapist is likely to select a victim who appears to be capable of evasion or self-defense. IOW, the fact that you can carefully categorize deviant behaviors doesn't negate the evidence that violent criminals, including rapists, have an enormous and very pronounced preference for weak / defenseless victims. If you were a duck, that would mean you would romancing a piece of driftwood at least as often as you get your end away with a weak and unattractive lady-duck, but your opportunities to force copulate with top-notch, desirable and fertile lady-ducks would be few and far between.

 

[jasonwill2]

Oh my god! Are you saying that this thread was never really about duck rape??? Wow, was I ever fooled!

I've just read up on your Groth categories, and I see nothing in that indicates any "type" of rapist is likely to select a victim who appears to be capable of evasion or self-defense. IOW, the fact that you can carefully categorize deviant behaviors doesn't negate the evidence that violent criminals, including rapists, have an enormous and very pronounced preference for weak / defenseless victims. If you were a duck, that would mean you would romancing a piece of driftwood at least as often as you get your end away with a weak and unattractive lady-duck, but your opportunities to force copulate with top-notch, desirable and fertile lady-ducks would be few and far between.

Well ya, potentially most since power-reassurance is the most common pathology, but not all go for weakness. Also this idea that there is no preference of look/body type is kind of not true depending on the pathology. Say a serial rapist is bored with weaker girls, he goes for a bigger challenge, or say his main goal is a woman that looks a certain way. In the former weakness is what he is bored with, and in the latter, it's secondary to the primary traits.

As for the topic, it was generally about rape in different species but I don't mind it going towards humans slightly, I just want to mostly avoid it though to prevent people from trolling and flaming each other. I am very happy with how this topic has fared so far.

 

[Alceste]

Well ya, potentially most since power-reassurance is the most common pathology, but not all go for weakness. Also this idea that there is no preference of look/body type is kind of not true depending on the pathology. Say a serial rapist is bored with weaker girls, he goes for a bigger challenge, or say his main goal is a woman that looks a certain way. In the former weakness is what he is bored with, and in the latter, it's secondary to the primary traits.

As for the topic, it was generally about rape in different species but I don't mind it going towards humans slightly, I just want to mostly avoid it though to prevent people from trolling and flaming each other. I am very happy with how this topic has fared so far.

I think we need to be very careful to avoid confusing personal rape fantasies with the reality of rape. It's accepted knowledge in criminal psychology that violent offenders usually choose victims who appear to be most vulnerable / least likely to fight back. So, even if they're looking specifically for a "blonde", for example, they will always pick the weakest of any assortment of blondes. Your claim that some rapists are more likely to single out strong, attractive victims who are able to defend themselves is totally unfounded, as far as psychology is concerned. It is far more likely that they'll get themselves worked up fantasizing about overpowering a victim who can fight back, but still select a weak victim for practical reasons (they don't want to get injured, they don't want to fail, and they don't want to get caught).

From an evolutionary perspective, this still amounts to the least sexually desirable males mating with the weakest females.

 

[jasonwill2]

I think we need to be very careful to avoid confusing personal rape fantasies with the reality of rape. It's accepted knowledge in criminal psychology that violent offenders usually choose victims who appear to be most vulnerable / least likely to fight back. So, even if they're looking specifically for a "blonde", for example, they will always pick the weakest of any assortment of blondes. Your claim that some rapists are more likely to single out strong, attractive victims who are able to defend themselves is totally unfounded, as far as psychology is concerned. It is far more likely that they'll get themselves worked up fantasizing about overpowering a victim who can fight back, but still select a weak victim for practical reasons (they don't want to get injured, they don't want to fail, and they don't want to get caught).

From an evolutionary perspective, this still amounts to the least sexually desirable males mating with the weakest females.

Oh, I know that fantasy is separated from the reality of it, but who said I was talking about fantasy? Like the serial killer who takes on risker victims... so can a rapist escalate.

And who said it is unfounded? I said that they could escalate if they were bored with "easier" prey and wanted more of a challenge, not that they would with no rape experience go out and try to rape a really strong woman.

 

[waitasec]

What evolutionary advantages of rape in a species are there? I have thought on it some in the past, but would rather not post my opinion on it.

this:

In the female mallard, one of the species where rape is particularly common, the vagina has evolved into a virtual labyrinth complete with twist turns, dead ends, and special sacs that will hold semen, preventing it from traveling to the egg. It is believed that these alternate routes are activated when the female tenses up (ie when being mounted by an irritating or unattractive male). If, however, she finds herself later on in the company of a male to whom she has taken a particular liking, she will then relax her muscles and the labyrinth transforms to straight shot to Georgia. Unfortunately, however, the males in this story have raised the stakes and have evolved alongside the girls a fairly frightening looking corkscrew shaped phallus to navigate the maze.

i quoted your duck source.

there will be at some point something else for the victim to evolve into

 

[NIX]

Evolutionary advantages of rape in a species

Well, in cases of animals and people whose countries outlaw abortion, he may be able to impregnate a large enough sampling of females to tip the balance. Of course this means (in the case of humans) rape as a full time job and the non use of a condom... so a much higher likelyhood of disease (which would weaken all of the mothers of his offspring, and the offspring itself). So I dunno how that all might work out in the end.

 

[Alceste]

Oh, I know that fantasy is separated from the reality of it, but who said I was talking about fantasy? Like the serial killer who takes on risker victims... so can a rapist escalate.

And who said it is unfounded? I said that they could escalate if they were bored with "easier" prey and wanted more of a challenge, not that they would with no rape experience go out and try to rape a really strong woman.

Again, you seem to be citing your own personal rape fantasies as "evidence". I'm not buying it. Rape fantasies bear little resemblance to actual rape. Predators choose victims they feel confident they can overpower, and who are least likely to cause injury or inconvenience. Not just in humans, but in every species, everywhere.

 

[jasonwill2]

Well, in cases of animals and people whose countries outlaw abortion, he may be able to impregnate a large enough sampling of females to tip the balance. Of course this means (in the case of humans) rape as a full time job and the non use of a condom... so a much higher likelyhood of disease (which would weaken all of the mothers of his offspring, and the offspring itself). So I dunno how that all might work out in the end.

Who said all rape was male on female? Male on male and female on female and female on male DO exist.

 

[jasonwill2]

Again, you seem to be citing your own personal rape fantasies as "evidence". I'm not buying it. Predators choose victims they feel confident they can overpower, and who are least likely to cause injury or inconvenience. Not just in humans, but in every species, everywhere.

I never once mentioned having rape fantasies, where did you get this idea? Least of all, that that is a fantasy of mine?

 

[waitasec]

Who said all rape was male on female? Male on male and female on female and female on male DO exist.

what is your definition of a deviant?

would you suppose a deviant is characteristic of the entire species they are a part of?