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Evolution & Sin

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by gen1615, Aug 19, 2005.

  1. gen1615

    gen1615 Member

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    I am quite open-minded regarding the evolution-creation debate. I believe Scripture to be a trustworthy witness, but I am willing to accept that Gen 1-3 should not be read as a historico-scientific account in the Western tradition. However, with regard to taking on board some/all aspects of evolutionary theory, I have one BIG stumbling block (this will only make sense to Christians who are committed to the Bible as Word of God): if evolution, then how did sin come into the world?

    It seems to me that, apart from teaching us that God is creator, Gen also tells us that mankind skrewed up something that was good. It is they who brought corruption into creation. If man & woman were placed in an already corrupt world, how can they be held accountable for sin? But, evolution implies much death and destruction (inseparable from sin) before the appearance of humanity.

    Is there an evolutionist believer out there who can square this circle for me?

    G.
     
  2. Fade

    Fade The Great Master Bates

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    The simple answer is that sin doesn't exist. It's a made up word, like love & God. We aren't accountable for anything.
    Evolution and death have been going on for a lot longer than the human race has been in existence. We just like to think we are more important than we really are.
    The concept of sin was introduced to help forge a moral code.
     
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  3. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Not really, only by saying that I think you are trying too hard to understand something by compartmentalizing your thoughts in too clinical a way. I don't suppose that helps at all, does it ?:D
     
  4. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    It's called a reification fallacy. Sin is a judgement; it came from our capacity to judge.
     
  5. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    I'm not a theistic evolutionst, nor do I play one on TV.. but I'll try to offer some solutions for you.

    Example: Genesis is a parable. It talks about man's similarity to God. unlike most animals man has knowledge of good, and with that knowledge comes the ability to (and inevitability of) commit both. Sin entered the world with the rise to sentience.
     
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  6. Sabio

    Sabio Active Member

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    Many people have supposed God's sovereignty to be some thing very different from what it is. They have supposed it to be such an arbitrary disposal of events, and particularly of the gift of his Spirit, as precluded a rational employment of means for promoting a revival of religion. But there is no evidence from the Bible that God exercises any such sovereignty as that. There are no facts to prove it. But every thing goes to show that God has connected means with the end through all the departments of his government--in nature and in grace. There is no natural event in which his own agency is not concerned. He has not built the creation like a vast machine that will go on alone without his further care. He has not retired from the universe, to let it work for itself. This is mere atheism. He exercises a universal superintendence and control. And yet every event in nature has been brought about by means. He neither administers providence nor grace with that sort of sovereignty that dispenses with the use of means. There is no more sovereignty in one than in the other.

    Charles G. Phinney
    http://www.charlesgfinney.com/1868Lect_on_Rev_of_Rel/68revlec01.htm
     
  7. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    (Sin)" It's a made up word, like love & God" - do you love anyone, Fade ?:)
     
  8. Fade

    Fade The Great Master Bates

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    I don't know what love means. I feel an emotional attachment to various friends, family and pets. I feel emotions like any other human but I don't pretend they actually have any meaning.
     
  9. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    That sounds (To me) like a cop-out; I can't see the point in asking you about 'happy' or 'sad'
    because you could well come back with the same answer.:D
     
  10. KirbyFan101

    KirbyFan101 Resident Ball of Fluff

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    One has to wonder how many fallacies you have up your sleeve!

    Every second post you make I find myself scrambling on wikipedia!
     
  11. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    well my religion doesn't have a "sin" concept going on... so I realy can't tell you where 'sin' evolved. :D
    however we have had a few talks about evolution and development of social concsious/social behavior.
    check out: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16249
    for example.

    wa:do
     
  12. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    Hi gen1615,
    I belive the history in genesis, their was a fall when mankind rebelled and chose to disobey their Creator. It also helps explains why it hurts so much when someone we love dies, its not suppose to be that way. If evolution was true you would think our "species" would have gotten use to it or somthing.
    For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Romans 8:20-22


    The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 1 Corinthians 15:26


    You may find this thread interesting http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17410
     
  13. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    I agree
    If there is no ability to think about and know what you are doing. there is no sin.

    Terry
    _______________________________________
    Blessed are the pure of heart, they shall behold their God.
     
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  14. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Well said Terry; in another thread there was a point made about a psychpath not being 'eligible to sin' because of his mental condition which denies him a conscience.:)
     
  15. Fade

    Fade The Great Master Bates

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    No more a cop-out than saying 'God did it'.
    Who do you think is being more intellectually honest?
    The person who accepts that he feels emotion but doesn't really understand where they come from or what they mean, or the person who touts the 'spiritual' significance[sp?] of emotion?
     
  16. Ulver

    Ulver Active Member

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    ... so Death was originally unnatural because just about all Humans (no matter what faith) have a Stigma towards death?! :biglaugh: sorry, but that's the funniest thing I've heard all day.

    why do we fear Death? Because it is the UNKOWN! As we feared the Ocean and the Wild Forests centuries ago (and to some extent still do). Filling them with tales of monsters and evil. Just as we do now with the great abyss that is space. The human mind creates all of these monsterious images when we try to think of what might exist in the Unkown (take for example the Alien films).

    "The oldest and strongest emotion of Mankind is Fear. And the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the Unkown"- H.P. Lovecraft

    np: Slayer- Praise Of Death

    ;) :jam:
     
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  17. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    I don't think it is a case of being intellectually honest. Intellect doesn't come into Faith - Intellect: "the power of knowing as distinguished from the power to feel and to will "; faith is what it says - just sheer conviction, however absurd people around make you out to be, of a belief in God (or whatever, according to your faith). Which is precicely why we carry on these circuitous arguments when non-theists ask theists to prove that there is a God. One is talking in the laguage of Emotion, of complete faith and trust in something that is intangible, whilst the other wants to get his micrometer and test meter out.[​IMG]
     
  18. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    No, one is talking self justification and the other is talking intersubjectively verifiable evidence.
     
  19. Fade

    Fade The Great Master Bates

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    Yes, that is my point. Faith is a form of intellectual dishonesty, precisely because it doesn't appeal to logic or reason.
     
  20. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    Faith is not "a form of intellectual dishonesty" - it is beliving what you 'dont know in full' because of what you do and can know. Faith in somthing that can be built on evidence that while not giving us a complete picture gives us ennough to belive the picture does indeed exist.
    Also Faith is not somthing that is exclusivly related to religion - it can relate to anything we dont/cant know in full.

    Many people belive in Jesus Christs death and resurection of because of the evidence - for example, the apostles after seeing the resurected Jesus didnt need faith anymore they absolutely knew if he had risen or not. After this many of them went to horrible deaths proclaiming what they knew was true - this is different to other people who have been killed for their faith as the apostles knew if what they were proclaiming was true. To claim they went to their horrible deaths knowing what they were proclaiming is just a lie is absurd. They died for what they knew was true or what they knew was false.
    We are left with the choice as to what makes most sense of this scenario. Do you belive that they would die for what they knew was a lie? It makes more sense that they would go through the things they did because they knew the truth. With this in mind it can strengthen out faith, its based on reason.

    Another example of evidence that favors faith in Christ would be the prophecies written hundreds of years before his birth, its up to us how we regard them - we can look at them and try and explain them away or we can put aside our prejudices and belive the obvious.

    I have faith in God and it is supported by evidence, logic and reason. While i dont have the full picture i have ennough evidence to belive a picture exists.
     
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