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evolution question (about man)

blackout

Violet.
Really I just have a question,
but I couldn't find a better forum to put this in. :shrug:

Do man's inventions
keep him from evolving physically?

For example,
men invent and use airplanes,
as a result they will never evolve wings
like birds.

If it's a stupid question
at least be nice. :p
I'm not a science person.
 

blackout

Violet.
Come to think of it,
I have another
(probably 101) question.

In a scientific sense,
are men considered to evolve "mentally"?
Obviously our inventive ability evolves...
(which you can evidence.... in 'the evolution' of our 'inventions')
but in strict terms of "evolution"
how is this described/explained/presented?

Is there some brain/neuron correlation
by which mental evolution is explained?

Again, please be nice,
sciences are not my field.
 
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jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
Really I just have a question,
but I couldn't find a better forum to put this in. :shrug:

Do man's inventions
keep him from evolving physically?

That depends on what you mean by "evolve". Evolution is taking place all the time no matter the conditions, but without a selection pressure of some kind, that is, in a very stable environment, it is unlikely to see dramatic phenotypical changes.
Now, the current environment that man lives in is very very new (from an evolutionary point of view) so it would be hard to make solid predictions about where evolution would take us over, say, the next 100.000 years.
What we can say though is that our inventions and our technology will certainly have -some- effect, but exactly what is still up in the blue.
It is not unlikely though that mankind will at some point in the future take more control over our evolution and make it more akin to artificial selection (as opposed to natural selection) through genetic manipulation. We're not yet at the level of designer babies, but there is no reason why this cannot happen some time into the future.


For example,
men invent and use airplanes,
as a result they will never evolve wings
like birds.

Seeing as there is no selection pressure for evolving wings and the major changes to our biology (bone structure, muscle tissue and placement, and so on...) it is unlikely that we would evolve wings at all.
However, in an extended sense one could look at technology as a part of our evolutionary development just as beaver dams and birds nests are a part of evolution. Richard Dawkins talks extensively about this in his book "The Extended Phenotype" and I highly recommend it. :)


If it's a stupid question
at least be nice. :p
I'm not a science person.

Honest questions are never stupid. :D

Edit: Something weird happend with the formating of this post but I cannot be bothered to fix it. >_<
 

blackout

Violet.
Artificial Selection and Designer Evolution.

Kind of speed things up a bit. :D

Still in a sense the Selection would not be artificial at all,
in that man is still a part of (an) evolutionary nature.
"Self Aware" Selection,
or "Purposeful Selection"?

Designor Evolution sounds neat though, just that way.
Kinda like Designer Jeans. :p

or how about... 'Couturevolution'!

I love fashion design. :D
 
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blackout

Violet.
However, in an extended sense one could look at technology as a part of our evolutionary development just as beaver dams and birds nests are a part of evolution

My intuition views it this way as well.
 

blackout

Violet.
Thank you JOT for your answers,
it all helps clarify.
You didn't answer this one though,
I think. :eek:

In a scientific sense,
are men considered to evolve "mentally"?
Obviously our inventive ability evolves...
(which you can evidence.... in 'the evolution' of our 'inventions')
but in strict terms of "evolution"
how is this described/explained/presented?

Is there some brain/neuron correlation
by which mental evolution is explained?

I don't know the right terms to ask in maybe.

Is men's mental evolution quantified, or qualified or...
is it technically addressed by science as a... measureable?
or... scientifically "witnessable" .... "evolution"?
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Biological evolution is a bit misnamed. Evolution is often understood to have a set direction or purpose, and that is not the case here.

Human choices (mainly dealing with medicine) do indeed interfere with natural seletion and therefore with evolution. It does not theorically make the development of things like wings or additional functional limbs impossible, but it does make them less likely to become widespread if they ever occur.

More generally, since the last few centuries have seen considerable effort towards ensuring the best possible odds of survival and of having fertile offspring to people of all genetic makeups, it seems to me that, if our more insane drives can be reigned in and humanity survives a few thousand centuries more, we will eventually see the more-or-less symultaneous and spontaneous arising of a handful of new human subspecies - say, one with functional nictating membranes between the fingers, another capable of making its own Vitamin C internally, and yet another that actually functions better at night than during daytime. A million years or so later, an actual new species might perhaps come to be, one that can no longer be considered Homo Sapiens.

But all that is ignoring genetic techniques. Alone among animals, humanity can now purposefully direct its own genetic future, both by direct manipulation and by a more mundane choice of reproductive mates. If we choose to, we may for instance make albinism or hemophily more widespread, or make distinct ethnies a very subjective classification. I don't think that is too likely to happen, however. The emotional and ethical challenges are too great.

As for mental aspects, it must be understood that while they are indeed covered by biological evolution, it is not in any way that ensures their continued growth in any meaningful way. We are theorically just as likely to become bruter and dumber along generations as we are to become more mentally capable and perceptive. We do have, for instance, a perception bias towards movement as opposed to detail, because such a bias proved useful in avoiding predators and rivals in the past. We (or more accurately, some specific subgroup of humanity) might eventually spontaneously develop the opposite bias, but it may take millions of years.

That is, if we are talking about biological potential alone. Besides the conscious choice of directing evolution that I mentioned above, and which is so far not shared by any other lifeforms, we must also consider that language and the capability for abstract thought are remarkable capabilities, that in many senses trump and surpass biological limitations. Your second post does not refer to biological evolution at all, but instead to the development and use of educational and societal structures that lead to better use of our mental potential. IMO we could probably jumpstart the development of, say, a chimp spoken language in a few thousand years if we choose to. It would take a lot of chimps, probably more than live these days, and a lot of effort, but it is probably possible. It would be even faster if we went all the way to breed generation after generation of chimps for their mental potential, which is perhaps not ethically sound. But assuming such a development to be possible, they would very soon participate in the mental game as well, and learn things such as mathematics and abstract concepts. Just like we did.
 

blackout

Violet.
Biological evolution is a bit misnamed. Evolution is often understood to have a set direction or purpose, and that is not the case here.

Human choices (mainly dealing with medicine) do indeed interfere with natural seletion and therefore with evolution. It does not theorically make the development of things like wings or additional functional limbs impossible, but it does make them less likely to become widespread if they ever occur.

More generally, since the last few centuries have seen considerable effort towards ensuring the best possible odds of survival and of having fertile offspring to people of all genetic makeups, it seems to me that, if our more insane drives can be reigned in and humanity survives a few thousand centuries more, we will eventually see the more-or-less symultaneous and spontaneous arising of a handful of new human subspecies - say, one with functional nictating membranes between the fingers, another capable of making its own Vitamin C internally, and yet another that actually functions better at night than during daytime. A million years or so later, an actual new species might perhaps come to be, one that can no longer be considered Homo Sapiens.

But all that is ignoring genetic techniques. Alone among animals, humanity can now purposefully direct its own genetic future, both by direct manipulation and by a more mundane choice of reproductive mates. If we choose to, we may for instance make albinism or hemophily more widespread, or make distinct ethnies a very subjective classification. I don't think that is too likely to happen, however. The emotional and ethical challenges are too great.

As for mental aspects, it must be understood that while they are indeed covered by biological evolution, it is not in any way that ensures their continued growth in any meaningful way. We are theorically just as likely to become bruter and dumber along generations as we are to become more mentally capable and perceptive. We do have, for instance, a perception bias towards movement as opposed to detail, because such a bias proved useful in avoiding predators and rivals in the past. We (or more accurately, some specific subgroup of humanity) might eventually spontaneously develop the opposite bias, but it may take millions of years.

That is, if we are talking about biological potential alone. Besides the conscious choice of directing evolution that I mentioned above, and which is so far not shared by any other lifeforms, we must also consider that language and the capability for abstract thought are remarkable capabilities, that in many senses trump and surpass biological limitations. Your second post does not refer to biological evolution at all, but instead to the development and use of educational and societal structures that lead to better use of our mental potential. IMO we could probably jumpstart the development of, say, a chimp spoken language in a few thousand years if we choose to. It would take a lot of chimps, probably more than live these days, and a lot of effort, but it is probably possible. It would be even faster if we went all the way to breed generation after generation of chimps for their mental potential, which is perhaps not ethically sound. But assuming such a development to be possible, they would very soon participate in the mental game as well, and learn things such as mathematics and abstract concepts. Just like we did.

Thanks Luis! That was very understandable,
with lots for me to consider.

I don't think that I worded my second post well.
I tried again to explain better what I was getting at,
but fear I do not have the "shop talk" terms
to get my idea across.
Or maybe my idea is even too vague in my own mind.
I'm not sure.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Really I just have a question,
but I couldn't find a better forum to put this in. :shrug:

Do man's inventions
keep him from evolving physically?

For example,
men invent and use airplanes,
as a result they will never evolve wings
like birds.

If it's a stupid question
at least be nice. :p
I'm not a science person.
Nope, it's not a stupid question!
Humans won't stop evolving... indeed the evidence hints that if anything our technology has sped us up.

Evolution is the change in particular copies of genes (called alleles) within populations over time.

So, being able to fly around the world and meet someone you love in a distant land, is actually helping mix our genes and speed up evolution.

Plus, our getting wings is essentially 0.... no matter how much you want to fly, flapping your arms just won't work. :rainbow1:

wa:do
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Come to think of it,
I have another
(probably 101) question.

In a scientific sense,
are men considered to evolve "mentally"?
Obviously our inventive ability evolves...
(which you can evidence.... in 'the evolution' of our 'inventions')
but in strict terms of "evolution"
how is this described/explained/presented?

Is there some brain/neuron correlation
by which mental evolution is explained?

Again, please be nice,
sciences are not my field.
Absolutely... our brains aren't likely to get dramatically bigger ( we seem to have reached a critical threshold between brain and pelvis size)... but the internal function of the brain is very plastic.

I would say the evidence for our mental evolution is less in our physical inventions and more in our social ones. Look at the difference in attitudes on social justice from just a few hundred years ago, that is a huge shift in our ability to empathize with others.

wa:do
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
I would say the evidence for our mental evolution is less in our physical inventions and more in our social ones. Look at the difference in attitudes on social justice from just a few hundred years ago, that is a huge shift in our ability to empathize with others.

wa:do

I see a danger in this type of argument. As I read it the argument could be twisted (and I am not for a moment suggesting that this is your argument) so it is presented that those in more 'socially just' societies are more evolved than those in less 'socially just' societies .

How would you respond to such an argument?
 
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painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
I would say there is no such thing as "more evolved". :D

I would however, say that the increase in our "monkeysphere" to accommodate people we have never met and are not in any way (outside of species) in our peer group, very interesting behaviorally.

wa:do
 

sniper762

Well-Known Member
man, being the dominant species (by imulation) has learned to fly and do other animalistic characteristics without having to posess their features.
 
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