Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
Herein I am challenging the idea of a biblical God who has always existed as a complex creator -and considering few other related points.
"Evolution" referred to development before it was specifically applied to biological changes.
(It is also true that biological changes are dependent upon developments which long preceded them -but more on that in another post.)
As I read biblical scripture, I noticed that it was not consistent with the idea of a God who has always existed AS a complex creator. It does state that God is eternal, but other statements clarify that statement.
It is clear that God is said to have "always" existed, but that does not mean God did not DEVELOP.
Being the sum of all things (as opposed to our selves which are only a portion) -or that which is, was and will be -would put God in the position of "most high" -and would also allow for the attributes of omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence. HOWEVER, as the fact that the overall situation of "reality" changes indicates, those attributes would apply differently as things developed or were created.
For example, when we create something new, it creates something new to know -to be aware of -and to manipulate.
One indication that God develops is that "the creation" once did not exist. Its existence (or the present configuration of the portion of everything it represents) is dependent upon planning, design and work.
That is definitely indicated in scripture... (Job 38: 4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof? ). It is also true that God would necessarily have developed AS a creator -proportional to the design, planning and work involved -as he created new things, even if his specific capacity to do so was "always" the same.
However, it is not logical that his specific capacity did not develop, either -as all things must be preceded by that which both GENERALLY -AND THEN SPECIFICALLY -make them possible. Complex interactions must be preceded by and built upon simple interactions, and complex creativity must be preceded by and built upon simple abilities. This leads to the question... God may have ALWAYS been -but has he ALWAYS been able to declare "I AM THAT AM"?
Many scriptures support (if not directly indicate) the idea of a developing God -especially if we work backward from that which is -and WILL BE. For example... if of the INCREASE of his (technically their) government... there will be no end, it begs the question "HOW LITTLE did he/they once govern?"
If "God" is the sum of all things, it also means that what he creates is created from himself -a logical separation and reconfiguration of a portion of the whole which is "God".
This leads to the question.. "If God did not decide upon his own basic existence, how much did he decide ABOUT his own existence?" (It would also mean that infinite increase and creation would be by infinite subdivision of "1" -of the whole of that which has always existed)
It seems logical to me that a developing God would have decided AS INCREASINGLY ABLE.
Certain things logically precede self-awareness, true self-aware decision-making, etc., accurate decisions must be based on the true nature of reality and are limited to presently-available options (even if "all things are possible"). Some things must precede a "brain", some things are "no-brainers" -yet require the existence of a brain to accomplish -and some things are variables which can be decided upon by "personal" preference. Such a God would have had to understand the basics of his own existence before proceeding.
A developing God would also explain why God is necessarily perfect. He would have HAD to be -or he would be directly affected. (We have many buffers in place which allow us to err many times in many ways before we are terribly affected as we learn, but such would not have been the case initially -and those buffers are dependent upon completely predictable interactions and systems.)
(The idea of a developing God would include the idea that God did not decide upon his own existence -but that would necessarily be true even if he "always" existed as a complex creator. It is not different from our best explanation for the existence of anything -which logically can not come from absolute nothing -that being "It just was")
I will try to add more supporting scripture while still able to edit
Comment, debate, consider possible ramifications, whatever....
"Evolution" referred to development before it was specifically applied to biological changes.
(It is also true that biological changes are dependent upon developments which long preceded them -but more on that in another post.)
As I read biblical scripture, I noticed that it was not consistent with the idea of a God who has always existed AS a complex creator. It does state that God is eternal, but other statements clarify that statement.
It is clear that God is said to have "always" existed, but that does not mean God did not DEVELOP.
Being the sum of all things (as opposed to our selves which are only a portion) -or that which is, was and will be -would put God in the position of "most high" -and would also allow for the attributes of omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence. HOWEVER, as the fact that the overall situation of "reality" changes indicates, those attributes would apply differently as things developed or were created.
For example, when we create something new, it creates something new to know -to be aware of -and to manipulate.
One indication that God develops is that "the creation" once did not exist. Its existence (or the present configuration of the portion of everything it represents) is dependent upon planning, design and work.
That is definitely indicated in scripture... (Job 38: 4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof? ). It is also true that God would necessarily have developed AS a creator -proportional to the design, planning and work involved -as he created new things, even if his specific capacity to do so was "always" the same.
However, it is not logical that his specific capacity did not develop, either -as all things must be preceded by that which both GENERALLY -AND THEN SPECIFICALLY -make them possible. Complex interactions must be preceded by and built upon simple interactions, and complex creativity must be preceded by and built upon simple abilities. This leads to the question... God may have ALWAYS been -but has he ALWAYS been able to declare "I AM THAT AM"?
Many scriptures support (if not directly indicate) the idea of a developing God -especially if we work backward from that which is -and WILL BE. For example... if of the INCREASE of his (technically their) government... there will be no end, it begs the question "HOW LITTLE did he/they once govern?"
If "God" is the sum of all things, it also means that what he creates is created from himself -a logical separation and reconfiguration of a portion of the whole which is "God".
This leads to the question.. "If God did not decide upon his own basic existence, how much did he decide ABOUT his own existence?" (It would also mean that infinite increase and creation would be by infinite subdivision of "1" -of the whole of that which has always existed)
It seems logical to me that a developing God would have decided AS INCREASINGLY ABLE.
Certain things logically precede self-awareness, true self-aware decision-making, etc., accurate decisions must be based on the true nature of reality and are limited to presently-available options (even if "all things are possible"). Some things must precede a "brain", some things are "no-brainers" -yet require the existence of a brain to accomplish -and some things are variables which can be decided upon by "personal" preference. Such a God would have had to understand the basics of his own existence before proceeding.
A developing God would also explain why God is necessarily perfect. He would have HAD to be -or he would be directly affected. (We have many buffers in place which allow us to err many times in many ways before we are terribly affected as we learn, but such would not have been the case initially -and those buffers are dependent upon completely predictable interactions and systems.)
(The idea of a developing God would include the idea that God did not decide upon his own existence -but that would necessarily be true even if he "always" existed as a complex creator. It is not different from our best explanation for the existence of anything -which logically can not come from absolute nothing -that being "It just was")
I will try to add more supporting scripture while still able to edit
Comment, debate, consider possible ramifications, whatever....
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. It is also true that God would necessarily have developed AS a creator -proportional to the design, planning and work involved -as he created new things, even if his specific capacity to do so was "always" the same.
