Evolution My ToE

[nPeace]

Very, very rarely. Most of the time what is referred to by a creationist was not a theory in the first place.

That is another claim, you cannot support either, because that is also not true.

 

[McBell]

That is another claim, you cannot support either, because that is also not true.

Except that it is true, that is highly supported in this very thread by you.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That is another claim, you cannot support either, because that is also not true.

Why make such a claim? It only makes you look bad. For example there is only one concept that could have been properly called a theory:

10 Most Famous Scientific Theories That Were Later Debunked

Perhaps you do not know what a scientific theory is. Again to Wikipedia:

A scientific theory is an explanation of an aspect of the natural world that can be repeatedly tested and verified in accordance with the scientific method, using accepted protocols of observation, measurement, and evaluation of results. Where possible, theories are tested under controlled conditions in an experiment.[1][2] In circumstances not amenable to experimental testing, theories are evaluated through principles of abductive reasoning. Established scientific theories have withstood rigorous scrutiny and embody scientific knowledge.[3]

Perhaps you could name some refuted scientific theories since you seem to think that this happens so often. Please note the rather straight forward qualifications.

 

[dad]

Google Scholar

That links a slew of articles on observed nuclear decay in supernovas. They can measure decay rates and compare them to the rates here. Guess what? They are the same.[/QUOTE]
A spam link then, instead of a link to your post where you made a case with evidence. Fine.
Name any decay observed in time outside this solar system area? None exists. It is only seen here and unfolds in our time and space.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Google Scholar

A spam link then, instead of a link to your post where you made a case with evidence. Fine.
Name any decay observed in time outside this solar system area? None exists. It is only seen here and unfolds in our time and space.

No not a spam link. One that refutes your claim. I told you that I would not dig up an old post. That was a rather pointless demand on your part.

And that is it. Until you learn what evidence is or own up to your errors you have no ability to demand evidence from me. If I feel like it I will post some. But I more than met your demand. And you do continually demonstrate that you believe in a lying God.

 

[nPeace]

Why make such a claim? It only makes you look bad. For example there is only one concept that could have been properly called a theory:

10 Most Famous Scientific Theories That Were Later Debunked

Perhaps you do not know what a scientific theory is. Again to Wikipedia:

A scientific theory is an explanation of an aspect of the natural world that can be repeatedly tested and verified in accordance with the scientific method, using accepted protocols of observation, measurement, and evaluation of results. Where possible, theories are tested under controlled conditions in an experiment.[1][2] In circumstances not amenable to experimental testing, theories are evaluated through principles of abductive reasoning. Established scientific theories have withstood rigorous scrutiny and embody scientific knowledge.[3]

Perhaps you could name some refuted scientific theories since you seem to think that this happens so often. Please note the rather straight forward qualifications.

Superseded theories in science - Wikipedia

 

[Audie]

Superseded theories in science - Wikipedia

Try to get the average date of those theories.
That is quite the list of moldy oldies.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The evidence that people have seen. The evidence science is not equipped to deal with.

As noted earlier, science is about observing, measuring, testing, etc. It's a tool and a method we use to discover things about what is real and what isn't in the world we live in.

If you cannot observe, measure, test, etc. for the existence of something, how do you konw that thing is there, and how can you demonstrate to anybody else that it is there?
By the way, please remember that you already said that spirits "influence things" which would mean they should be detectable in some way.

 

[Audie]

As noted earlier, science is about observing, measuring, testing, etc. It's a tool and a method we use to discover things about what is real and what isn't in the world we live in.

If you cannot observe, measure, test, etc. for the existence of something, how do you konw that thing is there, and how can you demonstrate to anybody else that it is there?
By the way, please remember that you already said that spirits "influence things" which would mean they should be detectable in some way.

Please remember that there are no rules for imaginary things.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Or the big bang...etc. Pick your fable. Now when people experience spiritual realities, that is another matter. Spiritual events have effects on lives and are observed and felt and experienced.

Right. But you don’t accept the Big Bang, right?

So then you not only understand my point, you are also reinforcing it for me. Thanks.

Just stating that something is a “spiritual reality” doesn’t make it so. We’ve been over that.

Your idea of collective reality is made up, and consists largely of denying spiritual realities that you cannot prove or disprove. Sorry if you thought your deliberate personal doubting carried any weight at all.

My idea of collective reality is made up?

Okay, so you do not accept that 2+2 = 4?

You do not accept that the Earth and planets orbit the sun?

You do not accept that the Earth is an oblate spheroid?

These are demonstrable facts about the world we live in.

Where are the demonstrable facts indicating that spirits exist?

So here I am making the same point again. The same point you keep ignoring. We cannot prove nor disprove the existence of spirits (or so you claim). So, what I’m still wondering is, why believe that they do exist, if as you say, their existence is neither provable nor unprovable? I believe things when there is evidence for their existence – not before. So again I have to point out that using your method for accepting facts of reality (or what you claim are facts of reality), we actually have to believe every single claim anybody makes at all, until someone can disprove it. Which of course, is absurd. So I’m wondering why you hold such an absurd position?

Great. So what? Who cares what is believed or not? Is this not a thread on evolution? The issue here is a belief in evolution. Science does and cannot deal with spiritual things. Period.

Who cares what is believed or not? Well, clearly you and I do.

Our beliefs influence our actions, so yeah, I care what people believe and I care what people want others to believe and I care what beliefs have a basis in reality, because I have to live in reality.

You keep making unsupportable claims not only about evolution, but about the existence of spirits. I am challenging you on those claims.

In order to be evidence for things that science cannot deal with we must expand what is considered evidence beyond the tiny box of scientific evidence.
But you must have solid evidence for your science claims!

This idea is rather silly and tired.

Things exist, or they don’t. Claims are demonstrably true, or they aren’t. There aren’t entities that just exist for you, or just exist for Sally down the street. If you think some entity exists, there is a reason for it – it may be a good one, or it may be a bad one. But there is a reason. Basically all you are saying is that there is no way to show that these things you believe in exist, but just take your word for it that they do. Would you accept a claim like that if I made it? Would it be wise for you to do so? People who care about believing as many true things as possible and not believing in as many false things as possible don’t just accept every claim they hear. Perhaps you are not one of those people.

What good evidence do you think you have that exists “beyond the tiny box of scientific evidence?” What is it?

To you, yes. So? Your science claims ought to be distinguishable!

Yes, to people who care about believing in as many true things as possible, your claims that are completely lacking in evidence, are akin to mother goose fables.

You do realize that people have claimed the existence of many thousands of different gods throughout human history. Surely you don’t believe all the stories attached to those gods, right? Think about why that is.

It is also a tool of doubters to try and limit all that goes on to the physical only criteria that science can deal with.

It’s a tool used by anyone who is interested in believing in as many true things as possible and not believing in as many false things as possible. I guess you’re not one of those people.

I’ll point out again that thanks to the scientific method, we know everything we currently know about the world and the universe we live in. Every single bit of information that we have was discovered via the scientific method. Absolutely none of it was discovered from reading ancient texts written by people with an extremely limited knowledge of the world around them (relative to what we know now).

Therefore it has no value or place or application in dealing with things it cannot see or test, such as the spirit world. It must be confined to its little box.

Again I have to point out to you that you claimed that spirits can influence the world. If they can in fact influence the world, they should leave behind some evidence of some kind. You can’t escape that.

And again, if you cannot see or test for something, how on earth are you determining that it is there in the first place??????

NONE of those discoveries deal with anything supernatural. None of those discoveries pertain to the theory of the evolution of life. Not sure why you bring up science in a thread about evolution, when you have none to post!

You (nor anybody at all) has yet to demonstrate that there is a supernatural world in the first place.

We’re talking about this stuff because you keep making unsupported claims about this stuff. Did you really think nobody was going to challenge your absurd claims?

To say that none of our scientific discoveries pertain to the theory of evolution is complete and utter nonsense. Everything we know about evolution was discovered using the scientific method.

This is a science forum and thread. Spirits are not in the domain of poor little so-called science.

A convenient excuse that you seem to think holds some kind of weight.

It doesn’t – it’s just a cop out.

Angels and God and creation are not scientific claims. Claims regarding them are not supported by physical-only science.

Sure they are. Any claim about what exists or doesn’t is a scientific claim.

You just don’t want it to be, because you can’t support it.

Yes.

Great. So then you accept some aspects of our collective reality.

Creatures who accept Jesus and His gift of eternal life never die. Math also depends on what 'objects' are being counted or included! 2 angels plus two oranges equals 2 oranges as far as science can tell!

Why you’re still making such unsupported claims is baffling.

What has orbits of the present time have to do with evolution of life on earth?

It has everything to do with your claims about reality. Maybe we should ask you why you are making god claims in a thread about evolution?

 

[SkepticThinker]

You were told that people that believe in spirits have all sorts of evidence. Science is inept.

Yeah I've been told that many times. What I haven't been given is EVIDENCE.

I would think Mary detected Jesus in her womb. I would think that the family, friends, and disciples of Christ detected Him after He rose from the dead. I would think that the people who had their blind eyes opened detected that they could see. Don't blame us if science can't detect all this.

You think a lot of things.
What can you demonstrate?

The bible is evidence a Spirit inspired it.

The Bible is the claim, not the evidence.

People who are healed are evidence spirits did something. People who have their lives influenced and changed and impacted by God show they were affected. Stick one of them in a lab and science would still be unable to detect anything!

Oh, healed people are evidence that spirits "did something?" How did you demonstrate that? And what "something" did they do?
How do you demonstrate that a person's life was actually influenced by God, rather than just their own feelings about God?

Most people throughout history believed in it for real reasons. People today who experience things supernatural believe in it. Science can't confirm or deny it.
Stop denying for no reason what was demonstrated to most people on the planet.

What you keep ignoring is that people throughout history have believed in many thousands of different gods. Do you believe in all of those thousands of gods, simply because people said they had experiences with them? Do you believe Thor creates lightning bolts? Do you believe in UFO abductions? Yeti sightings? Do you just believe everything everybody tells you? People believing in something, doesn't just make it true.

Electricity is invisible yet it does stuff.

Yeah, and guess what else electricity is? Detectable and measurable!

All history records spiritual phenomena.

What history shows, is that people willingly attribute events to "spiritual phenomena" but have yet to demonstrate it. History also shows that humans have created all kinds of gods, spirits, ghosts, etc. to explain things they did not understand. Notice though, that as science progresses, less and less things are attributed to gods and spirits, as we gain a better understanding of how the world around us works. We no longer believe that Thor creates lightning bolts because we now understand how lightning is generated all by itself, without the help of gods or spirits.

None of which you are in any position to deny or confirm.

So here we are again, staring at this silly claim that we must accept every claim until someone can disprove it. Surely you do not go about your life wasting your time like that.

Again, my position is, you are telling me some thing exists ... do you have evidence indicating that thing exists? And if there isn't any evidence for it, why believe it?

You cannot confirm or deny the experience of anyone, especially the majority of all men and women that ever lived!

Try addressing what I said. Thanks.

 

[YoursTrue]

I find it amusing that science advocates cannot tell the difference between life and death.

That is true. They think it's possible that life flew in from outer space. Or...maybe it didn't.

 

[YoursTrue]

Right. But you don’t accept the Big Bang, right?

So then you not only understand my point, you are also reinforcing it for me. Thanks.

Just stating that something is a “spiritual reality” doesn’t make it so. We’ve been over that.



My idea of collective reality is made up?

Okay, so you do not accept that 2+2 = 4?

You do not accept that the Earth and planets orbit the sun?

You do not accept that the Earth is an oblate spheroid?

These are demonstrable facts about the world we live in.

Where are the demonstrable facts indicating that spirits exist?

So here I am making the same point again. The same point you keep ignoring. We cannot prove nor disprove the existence of spirits (or so you claim). So, what I’m still wondering is, why believe that they do exist, if as you say, their existence is neither provable nor unprovable? I believe things when there is evidence for their existence – not before. So again I have to point out that using your method for accepting facts of reality (or what you claim are facts of reality), we actually have to believe every single claim anybody makes at all, until someone can disprove it. Which of course, is absurd. So I’m wondering why you hold such an absurd position?



Who cares what is believed or not? Well, clearly you and I do.

Our beliefs influence our actions, so yeah, I care what people believe and I care what people want others to believe and I care what beliefs have a basis in reality, because I have to live in reality.

You keep making unsupportable claims not only about evolution, but about the existence of spirits. I am challenging you on those claims.



This idea is rather silly and tired.

Things exist, or they don’t. Claims are demonstrably true, or they aren’t. There aren’t entities that just exist for you, or just exist for Sally down the street. If you think some entity exists, there is a reason for it – it may be a good one, or it may be a bad one. But there is a reason. Basically all you are saying is that there is no way to show that these things you believe in exist, but just take your word for it that they do. Would you accept a claim like that if I made it? Would it be wise for you to do so? People who care about believing as many true things as possible and not believing in as many false things as possible don’t just accept every claim they hear. Perhaps you are not one of those people.

What good evidence do you think you have that exists “beyond the tiny box of scientific evidence?” What is it?



Yes, to people who care about believing in as many true things as possible, your claims that are completely lacking in evidence, are akin to mother goose fables.

You do realize that people have claimed the existence of many thousands of different gods throughout human history. Surely you don’t believe all the stories attached to those gods, right? Think about why that is.



It’s a tool used by anyone who is interested in believing in as many true things as possible and not believing in as many false things as possible. I guess you’re not one of those people.

I’ll point out again that thanks to the scientific method, we know everything we currently know about the world and the universe we live in. Every single bit of information that we have was discovered via the scientific method. Absolutely none of it was discovered from reading ancient texts written by people with an extremely limited knowledge of the world around them (relative to what we know now).



Again I have to point out to you that you claimed that spirits can influence the world. If they can in fact influence the world, they should leave behind some evidence of some kind. You can’t escape that.

And again, if you cannot see or test for something, how on earth are you determining that it is there in the first place??????


You (nor anybody at all) has yet to demonstrate that there is a supernatural world in the first place.

We’re talking about this stuff because you keep making unsupported claims about this stuff. Did you really think nobody was going to challenge your absurd claims?

To say that none of our scientific discoveries pertain to the theory of evolution is complete and utter nonsense. Everything we know about evolution was discovered using the scientific method.



A convenient excuse that you seem to think holds some kind of weight.

It doesn’t – it’s just a cop out.



Sure they are. Any claim about what exists or doesn’t is a scientific claim.

You just don’t want it to be, because you can’t support it.



Great. So then you accept some aspects of our collective reality.



Why you’re still making such unsupported claims is baffling.



It has everything to do with your claims about reality. Maybe we should ask you why you are making god claims in a thread about evolution?

Some people's spiritual reality may be hallucinations or something like that, so I suppose for them it's a spiritual reality. On the other hand, our psyches are or can be products of our environment.

 

[Audie]

Some people's spiritual reality may be hallucinations or something like that, so I suppose for them it's a spiritual reality. On the other hand, our psyches are or can be products of our environment.

Some people's spiritual reality requires the hallucination that
they can show that the ToE is false; on the other hand, the
Nobel committee fails to be impressed, and, the hallucinators
fail to ever come up with a single datum point contrary to ToE.

Maybe that is why only the "believers" can believe
something is there even when it is not.

 

[dad]

No not a spam link. One that refutes your claim. I told you that I would not dig up an old post. That was a rather pointless demand on your part.

It does not even address the issue of whether time exists as we know it also in deep space. Seeing light here from the distant universe does not tell us what time is like there. All it tells us is what materials exist there by the incoming spectra. Then we see that here on earth, decay sequences involving the materials we see take a certain amount of time HERE.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It does not even address the issue of whether time exists as we know it also in deep space. Seeing light here from the distant universe does not tell us what time is like there. All it tells us is what materials exist there by the incoming spectra. Then we see that here on earth, decay sequences involving the materials we see take a certain amount of time HERE.

It does, but you won't let yourself see that.

i will help you to understand the basics of science so that you do not keep repeating your errors.

 

[dad]

As noted earlier, science is about observing, measuring, testing, etc. It's a tool and a method we use to discover things about what is real and what isn't in the world we live in.

If you cannot observe, measure, test, etc. for the existence of something, how do you konw that thing is there, and how can you demonstrate to anybody else that it is there?

I can observe changes in people's lives. Science cannot. Mary could observe that she was pregnant though having never slept with a man.

By the way, please remember that you already said that spirits "influence things" which would mean they should be detectable in some way.

Pregnancy is very detectable!

 

[Subduction Zone]

I can observe changes in people's lives. Science cannot. Mary could observe that she was pregnant though having never slept with a man.
Pregnancy is very detectable!

Mary would not be the first woman to claim that she did not sleep with anyone, and Joseph would not be the first man to buy that claim.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I can observe changes in people's lives. Science cannot. Mary could observe that she was pregnant though having never slept with a man.
Pregnancy is very detectable!

Is that your serious answer?

How do we know that my uncle's cancer is in remission?
How do we know that my urinary tract infection was cleared up after taking antibiotics?
How do we know that we're pregnant before the pregnancy starts to show?

You don't really think such changes in peoples' lives are undetectable by science, right?

 

[dad]

Right. But you don’t accept the Big Bang, right?

Correct.

So then you not only understand my point, you are also reinforcing it for me. Thanks.

Just stating that something is a “spiritual reality” doesn’t make it so. We’ve been over that.

Yes, your point is that you wish to group all fables and beliefs together except your own.

My idea of collective reality is made up?

Okay, so you do not accept that 2+2 = 4?

How many would we have if there were two angels and two apples on a table? It all depends on what the math represents.

You do not accept that the Earth and planets orbit the sun?

You do not accept that the Earth is an oblate spheroid?

These are demonstrable facts about the world we live in.

Yes. Just as I accept that the nature that exists is really here now. That does not mean that a new nature will not exist one day in the kingdom of God, or that a different nature may not have existed in the days of Adam. Don't conflate reality with just a small part of reality. Just because there is more to reality than science knows, does not mean that in many cases (except origin issues that are flights of fancy) they deal in reality. They just deal in a small part of it exclusively.

Where are the demonstrable facts indicating that spirits exist?

Most people of all ages have accepted that they do for many reasons.

So here I am making the same point again. The same point you keep ignoring. We cannot prove nor disprove the existence of spirits (or so you claim). So, what I’m still wondering is, why believe that they do exist, if as you say, their existence is neither provable nor unprovable? I believe things when there is evidence for their existence – not before. So again I have to point out that using your method for accepting facts of reality (or what you claim are facts of reality), we actually have to believe every single claim anybody makes at all, until someone can disprove it. Which of course, is absurd. So I’m wondering why you hold such an absurd position?

No. I said YOU cannot prove the existence of spirits, science cannot. The rest of us CAN and do and did. We just exclude science.

Who cares what is believed or not? Well, clearly you and I do.

False, not when it comes to scientific claims.

You keep making unsupportable claims not only about evolution, but about the existence of spirits. I am challenging you on those claims.

Evolution of life on earth is a pipe dream with no support whatsoever except belief. The process of evolving is a God-given trait, so naturally, we can observe that. What you cannot do is tie that into the origin of life, or evolution of man as the reason we are here.

Things exist, or they don’t. Claims are demonstrably true, or they aren’t.

God gave Mary the demo. You cannot demonstrate it true or false with science. I can demonstrate it true because Jesus fulfilled the prophecies and rose from the dead, and works in the lives of all who ask. Science cannot, I can!

What good evidence do you think you have that exists “beyond the tiny box of scientific evidence?” What is it?

All of creation for starters. The experiences of my life and most people of all time for another.

You do realize that people have claimed the existence of many thousands of different gods throughout human history. Surely you don’t believe all the stories attached to those gods, right? Think about why that is.

I do believe in spirits actually, good and bad. If any spirits in history affected people I would not rule out that they may be real. Bad, in most cases, but real.

I’ll point out again that thanks to the scientific method, we know everything we currently know about the world and the universe we live in.

And I point out that science is small and covers only a little part of the universe we live in. In fact, their claims about where it came from and what it is like are a joke.

Every single bit of information that we have was discovered via the scientific method.

Crazy talk.

Again I have to point out to you that you claimed that spirits can influence the world. If they can in fact influence the world, they should leave behind some evidence of some kind. You can’t escape that.

They do. The results of spiritual influence are all around us.

To say that none of our scientific discoveries pertain to the theory of evolution is complete and utter nonsense. Everything we know about evolution was discovered using the scientific method.

You know almost nothing about evolution. That is the problem. Evolution is God-given and part of life for His creatures. Name one discovery that has to do with your imaginary relatives between you and flatworms? You can't because there is not one.

Any claim about what exists or doesn’t is a scientific claim.

Utter rubbish. People claimed stuff long before science existed.

Great. So then you accept some aspects of our collective reality.

There is no 'our'. There is reality. You just have access to part of it. That is not the collective reality of God's people! That is just a selective part of reality that waves away most of it!

It has everything to do with your claims about reality. Maybe we should ask you why you are making god claims in a thread about evolution?

To discuss the nature of life one cannot avoid it! Why are you alluding to flatworm relatives, and Banana brethren!? (TOE teaches plants and simple life forms are early forms of life from which we came, correct?)