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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Darwin wrote his theory of evolution before the discovery of DNA. He postulated the theory of natural selection, which seemed rational or based on cause and affect. The bigger and stronger would win. The modern rendition of evolution, is now based on a random change on the DNA.

Dice, cards and jackpots, which also use statistical arguments where around at the time of Darwin, and Darwin never went that way. Darwin was not into gambling, booze, dance hall girls and stolen merchandise. Darwin is being misrepresented. This has been my beef with evolution. The modern version depends on the same math that is behind gambling games like cards, invented by man, that are not natural. How can you make a natural selection, using the math behind manmade objects? Darwin never said this but rather saw an order in nature.

Playing cards all have the same mass, size and material, yet they have 52 subjective variations plus jokers. Any two decks can be different. This alternate reality only exist because of man. There is nothing in the natural universe that is like that. Nature is quantized, with each quanta representing differences in known physical parameters. It is not about difference in subjective coloration. Nature does not depend on subjective criteria like printed pictures; 100% facade. This is why it is called gaming the system.

Darwin's name is used to add prestige to this, but he never endorsed a gamble model of evolution, run in science casinos. Any gambling addict, even on science, will see himself winning the jackpot, before he enters the casino. This is reinforced by comps, where even if you lose; dos not pan out as planned, you get a bonus; increased odds. This type of unnatural science harms the brain.
The randomness is only in the reproductive dice roll. After that the results are selected. Nature conserves beneficial features and discards the rest. The beneficial features increase in frequency. The mechanisms are pretty obvious and commonsense.
Do you not understand how natural selection works?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I am reporting what my religion knows, I am sorry if it looks like a rules violation. But I think, that my religion is the good one. For example, my religion knows, that General Relativity was discovered by Einstein.
People of every religion know that.
Does your religion draw conclusions from observable, testable phenomena, or from old fables and hearsay? Is it even falsifiable?
 

questfortruth

Well-Known Member
People of every religion know that.
Does your religion draw conclusions from observable, testable phenomena, or from old fables and hearsay? Is it even falsifiable?
My religion is all there is for me. Thus, it includes Physics, Mathematics, Poetry, Chemistry, etc.
"Let there be God all in all" (to my memory, Bible). For example, the CERN with the LHC collider gives information to my religion of how the Creator has created the particles.

Knowledge is the Name of My God.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You like to think so, but it does not follow: 1. The miracle is God's wonder (not devil's magic, you should copy), 2. The events can not be explained by it. From 1 does not follow 2, because God is there alive! God is not dead.
You still have not supported your premise of a living god. Until you support your major premise everything derived from it is suspect.
Humankind has not decided between Evolutionism and Creationism. Any doubt of Evolution "Fact" proves the Creation.
Humankind has decided, and it's not for magic.
Does any doubt of creation therefore prove evolution?
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
My religion is all there is for me. Thus, it includes Physics, Mathematics, Poetry, Chemistry, etc.
"Let there be God all in all" (to my memory, Bible). For example, the CERN with the LHC collider gives information to my religion of how the Creator has created the particles.

Knowledge is the Name of My God.
"Knowledge" is English for "science."
Your religion has drawn some major false conclusions. It cannot support these conclusions.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Darwin wrote his theory of evolution before the discovery of DNA. He postulated the theory of natural selection, which seemed rational or based on cause and affect. The bigger and stronger would win. The modern rendition of evolution, is now based on a random change on the DNA.

Dice, cards and jackpots, which also use statistical arguments where around at the time of Darwin, and Darwin never went that way. Darwin was not into gambling, booze, dance hall girls and stolen merchandise. Darwin is being misrepresented. This has been my beef with evolution. The modern version depends on the same math that is behind gambling games like cards, invented by man, that are not natural. How can you make a natural selection, using the math behind manmade objects? Darwin never said this but rather saw an order in nature.

Playing cards all have the same mass, size and material, yet they have 52 subjective variations plus jokers. Any two decks can be different. This alternate reality only exist because of man. There is nothing in the natural universe that is like that. Nature is quantized, with each quanta representing differences in known physical parameters. It is not about difference in subjective coloration. Nature does not depend on subjective criteria like printed pictures; 100% facade. This is why it is called gaming the system.

Darwin's name is used to add prestige to this, but he never endorsed a gamble model of evolution, run in science casinos. Any gambling addict, even on science, will see himself winning the jackpot, before he enters the casino. This is reinforced by comps, where even if you lose; dos not pan out as planned, you get a bonus; increased odds. This type of unnatural science harms the brain.
You misunderstand how chance is part of evolution. It doesn't rely on a gambling strategy. It relies on a statistical strategy. And even that is poorly phrased since I incorrectly imply some sort of agency behind evolution.

One can analyze how evolution proceeds using statistics just as one can analyze an orbit by using calculus. There does not appear to be an intelligence behind either. There is no gambling in evolution.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
A gaming analogy:
Let a dozen dice represent the gene coding for trait X.
Let a dice roll represent a reproductive event.
Let twelve sevens represent the optimum expression of X to fit the particular environment.

Roll the dice.
Set aside any sevens, shake the remaining dice and roll again.
Repeat, repeat, repeat...

The "random events" are the dice rolls. These are the points where chance is the major factor.
After the dice rolls, selection becomes the determining factor. Selection is not random.

The chance of rolling twelve sevens in a single roll is astronomical, but natural selection is not chance.
Statistically, preserving the sevens with each roll should get you straight sevens -- a best fit -- with only a handful of reproductive events.

You can workout the chances. I don't have the time.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Darwin's theory of national selection was publish in 1859. Darwin would have been well aware of how humans, since the dawn of civilization, consciously bred animals and plants to enhance their desirable properties. This is called human selection.

His trip to the Galapagos brought him to a place, untouched by humans, but which showed plant and animal life, optimized to its natural environment. He called this natural selection since it was remote and untouched by humans. It was only touched by nature and selected by nature, apart from man. He formed a parallel between well documented human choices and natural choices.

He used the word natural, instead of Divine, since natural was the part of God's creation subject to science. Divine also included things that science may not be able to fully investigate. In the bible, humans were to become the caretake of the earth and to know how to do this well, we needed to know how creation works

Darwin had a medical degree and he was well aware of the science of his day. Statistical science was not new. If you look in Wikipedia, the first use of statistical math dates back to roughly 800 AD, a thousand years before Darwin's paper was published. Darwin did not choose a randomized approach, even though it was available as an option. He knew humans selected plants and animals based on the observations, that like begets like; cause and affect. You cannot blend corn and tomatoes and randomly expect wheat. That would have been called alchemy. But you could blend only short haired dogs, and get a new breed of dogs with only short hair. This was rational and based on cause and affect; age of enlightenment. DNA was not known at that time and his approach, as a doctor, was rational and not random.

Natural selection was consistent with the religious views of monotheism and an omniscience God. Natural selection ends up with the best of the best under any given set of conditions. Even if a tree falls on the initial best, what is left will still end up with its best. This approach was not consistent with polytheism, and the whims of the gods of statistics. Polytheism allows a renegade god to add a magic wild card. Darwin never claimed this. That approach was used by the alchemists to compensate for lack of understanding.

In terms of religion, monotheism sets one set of universal rules, that allows for cause and affect in nature; divine plan of intermeshed parts. Polytheism had many gods, pulling in various directions, acting in emotionally impulsive and whimsical ways, to create disorder and exceptions. This is an older way of looking at reality. Darwin's approach was more consistent with the more modern monotheism angle, which favored natural cause and effect leading to strong, robust and healthy critters, in any natural conditions. Statistics was more like whims of the gods and allows gold from lead; finite odds. Darwin never assumed a science casino parallel; polytheism, where difference are expected in each experiment based on whims du jour. That is due to bad or irrational theory.

The math of statistics is the same math used to model gambling. That says a lot. Gambling is a manmade invention, that is not natural (selection). In a deck of cards, all cards have the same objective dimensions, weight and material. They differ by the subjective facades defined by man. Nature does not work this way. Darwin was not interested in man made selection, but only natural selection. Manmade might choose a facade, such as breeding a black cat, which may not be natural selection in a snowy land. Natural tends to pick in terms of function more than form. Science can quantify function. Form, without function, is subjective and is not quantifiable except via self serving politics.

If you look at a deck of cards, each card is quantitatively the same, in dimensions and materials, but has a subjectively different value, with the top cards Jack, Queen and King. The Ace can be higher than the King or lower than the deuce. The Ace symbolized God. He could lead King in the minds of the faithful, or be worthless in the minds of Atheists.

If you look closely at this manmade game, defined by the laws of statistics, it was a metaphor for the classic social hierarchy since the beginning of culture. One's position in culture was defined by man based on subjective criteria; facade. The King was the top dog of secular society. This was not based on any quantifiable science parameter such as strength, fastest runner, best intellect, etc. We did not measure everyone, by objective standards, and let natural selection choose; God's plan. This was fixed in advance, by man, with no objective tests used. The free market changed that.

The King of cards was an inherited position all based on subjective convention. Based on that convention he was always the best, without the need to be tested, objectivity. Racism uses the same card schema where social position is decided by a facade of skin color, which then defines which card you are in the deck. In the old days, one may not be able to move from that card value. Your children if born into a three will aways be lower than the four, but higher than the two.

The reverse discrimination being employed by the left, simply redefines the faces of the playing cards, but it does to change the game. It is all politics and facade not supported by any objective measures, like standard test scores. This is polytheism modeled, with statistics, to hide the needs for objectivity and science based decisions. Darwin did not go there, but he nevertheless had to walk a tightrope because of political subjectivity, that benefited by the deck of cards approach. This had even infiltrated the Church. Both benefited by whims of the gods and odds, but not by objectivity.

Those of faith, do not throw Darwin out with the bathwater, since his approach was consistent with a planned universe of cause and affect. The politics you now see, that misrepresents Darwin, is based on the polytheism of statistical models and gambling, trying to define its approach as the King and the Ace as the one. If you accept that, then the game can be played better with whims of fake news and statistics.

In rational sciences, theories need to hit the bull's eye. Recently they sent a Mars rover to Mars without any human control to fine tune the descent. This mission was based on objective science, since it hit the bulls eye with the theory, after shot left the earth. Statistical theory only has to hit the target even off the playing grid. That is called statistically significant. This is a very watered down standard. Darwin envisioned the bulls eye and not just hitting the target support stand via polytheism and whims of the gods.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Darwin's theory of national selection was publish in 1859. Darwin would have been well aware of how humans, since the dawn of civilization, consciously bred animals and plants to enhance their desirable properties. This is called human selection.

His trip to the Galapagos brought him to a place, untouched by humans, but which showed plant and animal life, optimized to its natural environment. He called this natural selection since it was remote and untouched by humans. It was only touched by nature and selected by nature, apart from man. He formed a parallel between well documented human choices and natural choices.

He used the word natural, instead of Divine, since natural was the part of God's creation subject to science. Divine also included things that science may not be able to fully investigate. In the bible, humans were to become the caretake of the earth and to know how to do this well, we needed to know how creation works

Darwin had a medical degree and he was well aware of the science of his day. Statistical science was not new. If you look in Wikipedia, the first use of statistical math dates back to roughly 800 AD, a thousand years before Darwin's paper was published. Darwin did not choose a randomized approach, even though it was available as an option. He knew humans selected plants and animals based on the observations, that like begets like; cause and affect. You cannot blend corn and tomatoes and randomly expect wheat. That would have been called alchemy. But you could blend only short haired dogs, and get a new breed of dogs with only short hair. This was rational and based on cause and affect; age of enlightenment. DNA was not known at that time and his approach, as a doctor, was rational and not random.

Natural selection was consistent with the religious views of monotheism and an omniscience God. Natural selection ends up with the best of the best under any given set of conditions. Even if a tree falls on the initial best, what is left will still end up with its best. This approach was not consistent with polytheism, and the whims of the gods of statistics. Polytheism allows a renegade god to add a magic wild card. Darwin never claimed this. That approach was used by the alchemists to compensate for lack of understanding.

In terms of religion, monotheism sets one set of universal rules, that allows for cause and affect in nature; divine plan of intermeshed parts. Polytheism had many gods, pulling in various directions, acting in emotionally impulsive and whimsical ways, to create disorder and exceptions. This is an older way of looking at reality. Darwin's approach was more consistent with the more modern monotheism angle, which favored natural cause and effect leading to strong, robust and healthy critters, in any natural conditions. Statistics was more like whims of the gods and allows gold from lead; finite odds. Darwin never assumed a science casino parallel; polytheism, where difference are expected in each experiment based on whims du jour. That is due to bad or irrational theory.

The math of statistics is the same math used to model gambling. That says a lot. Gambling is a manmade invention, that is not natural (selection). In a deck of cards, all cards have the same objective dimensions, weight and material. They differ by the subjective facades defined by man. Nature does not work this way. Darwin was not interested in man made selection, but only natural selection. Manmade might choose a facade, such as breeding a black cat, which may not be natural selection in a snowy land. Natural tends to pick in terms of function more than form. Science can quantify function. Form, without function, is subjective and is not quantifiable except via self serving politics.

If you look at a deck of cards, each card is quantitatively the same, in dimensions and materials, but has a subjectively different value, with the top cards Jack, Queen and King. The Ace can be higher than the King or lower than the deuce. The Ace symbolized God. He could lead King in the minds of the faithful, or be worthless in the minds of Atheists.

If you look closely at this manmade game, defined by the laws of statistics, it was a metaphor for the classic social hierarchy since the beginning of culture. One's position in culture was defined by man based on subjective criteria; facade. The King was the top dog of secular society. This was not based on any quantifiable science parameter such as strength, fastest runner, best intellect, etc. We did not measure everyone, by objective standards, and let natural selection choose; God's plan. This was fixed in advance, by man, with no objective tests used. The free market changed that.

The King of cards was an inherited position all based on subjective convention. Based on that convention he was always the best, without the need to be tested, objectivity. Racism uses the same card schema where social position is decided by a facade of skin color, which then defines which card you are in the deck. In the old days, one may not be able to move from that card value. Your children if born into a three will aways be lower than the four, but higher than the two.

The reverse discrimination being employed by the left, simply redefines the faces of the playing cards, but it does to change the game. It is all politics and facade not supported by any objective measures, like standard test scores. This is polytheism modeled, with statistics, to hide the needs for objectivity and science based decisions. Darwin did not go there, but he nevertheless had to walk a tightrope because of political subjectivity, that benefited by the deck of cards approach. This had even infiltrated the Church. Both benefited by whims of the gods and odds, but not by objectivity.

Those of faith, do not throw Darwin out with the bathwater, since his approach was consistent with a planned universe of cause and affect. The politics you now see, that misrepresents Darwin, is based on the polytheism of statistical models and gambling, trying to define its approach as the King and the Ace as the one. If you accept that, then the game can be played better with whims of fake news and statistics.

In rational sciences, theories need to hit the bull's eye. Recently they sent a Mars rover to Mars without any human control to fine tune the descent. This mission was based on objective science, since it hit the bulls eye with the theory, after shot left the earth. Statistical theory only has to hit the target even off the playing grid. That is called statistically significant. This is a very watered down standard. Darwin envisioned the bulls eye and not just hitting the target support stand via polytheism and whims of the gods.
Since you clearly do not understand what you are talking about why don't you ask questions instead? You need to start at the basics. Don't assume that you know anything at all.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
What need of a 'who' if you have a how?
Can we avoid an atheism vs theism debate in this thread?
It isn’t about atheism at all, sun rise.

Evolution only concern with biology, where small changes can aid the survival of descendants, when the environments have changed.

As biology is part of Natural Sciences, as are physics, chemistry, Earth science and astronomy, so it never concerned with the WHO. What matters to of the branches of Natural Sciences are dealing with the WHAT & the HOW.

So given the specific natural and physical phenomena under scientific investigation, scientists are trying to explain the following questions:
  • WHAT it is?
  • HOW does it work?
  • WHAT are the applications, if any? (that if you managed to find answers to the above questions.)
  • HOW you would go about doing it? (eg the “it” referred to the “applications”.)
Often when you are able to answer any of the above questions, it might give insight as to the WHY questions/answers...

...but I think the WHY (and the WHO) are more relevant in Social Sciences and philosophies than in Natural Sciences.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Evolution has nothing to do with the transition from non-living to living; never claimed to.
What are you talking about? Explain.
Quest, this is just ridiculous. Why not tie the current pandemic, the
Chicxulub meteor and the rise of smart phones into your narrative, as well?

Please tell us what point you're trying to make, rather than just slinging mud.
There are mantras, and there are mantras. Such as: Evolution has nothing to do with the transition from non-living to living; never claimed to.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
9ba731b65f8961e53578b115a469ea73.png


but I'm pretty confident it's the later.
With a line-up of straw men like this (and you should know they are, as this has been pointed out many times), you can't be serious.
Or are you? Then I invite you to teach you the basics of evolutionary theory and guarantee that you will understand evolution or quit learning because you don't want to understand evolution.
Glad you said evolutionary theory in the first sense. Followed by evolution. As if the theory is a proven. One can understand the theory but not believe it. Because -- :)
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
One can understand the theory but not believe it. Because -- :)
Unlikely but possible. Anyway, it doesn't change that creationists critique of evolution is almost always from a position of ignorance. And it doesn't bother the creationists that they don't understand what they are talking about because they hope their audience doesn't either.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
There are mantras, and there are mantras. Such as: Evolution has nothing to do with the transition from non-living to living; never claimed to.
Can't have the Theory without another theory of how did it start.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Unlikely but possible. Anyway, it doesn't change that creationists critique of evolution is almost always from a position of ignorance. And it doesn't bother the creationists that they don't understand what they are talking about because they hope their audience doesn't either.
I can figure the theory out but not believe it.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It's almost like a lawyer might say, ok, here's what the defendant says happened. And report it correctly.
 
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