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Featured Evolution has been observed... right?

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by Xavier Graham SA, Jul 18, 2021.

  1. Xavier Graham SA

    Xavier Graham SA God is Love is love is love. OM, AV KAH AHH!

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    Pugs. Didn’t they use to have noses? Like, the old paintings of them, they have snouts! Full on noses, and they look happy too. Nowadays they look pathetic. We, humanity, observed that change, right? A change that affected a species as a whole. It was a result of our own buffoonery that doomed these poor fellas to pancake faces.
    That’s evolution, right? We’ve seen it happen. Am I getting something wrong here? I’m no scientist.
     
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  2. Justanatheist

    Justanatheist Active Member

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    Yes.
     
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  3. AlexanderG

    AlexanderG Member

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    Evolution is the change in allele frequency in a population of organisms over many generations. An allele is a version of a gene. Blue eyes, green eyes, and brown eyes are different alleles of the eye color gene. For example, we might see a particular shade of fur become more common in a species population that has migrated to a new environment with a new palette of natural background colors.

    The theory of evolution is a conceptual model that considers the implications of observable evolution occurring over vast amounts of time, which lets us accurately predict future experimental data like where a certain transitional fossil will be found that we haven't discovered yet, or how long it will take for a disease to develop resistance to an antibiotic. It has made hundreds of thousands if not millions of accurate future predictions, and is one of the most reliable theories in science.

    It is very easy to observe evolution. You can take a bit of soil from your backyard with billions of bacteria in it, and place it in a container of nutrient broth that has very low levels of one vital ingredient (like poor amounts of any chemical containing carbon for the bacteria to use). Then, add a substitute for that ingredient that no bacterium can digest, like a new pesticide. Slowly increase the concentration of this chemical over time while growing the bacteria, and you'll see the evolution of a new metabolic pathway to digest this new chemical. You can sequence the DNA of the bacteria at the start and the end of this experiment, and see the genetic changes that result in a new set of enzymes to break up the chemical and transform it into something usable. This has been done many many times, and provides a strategy to clean up chemical spills, and is evolution.

    When England was experiencing its industrial revolution, we saw moths evolve a darker color because the trees they perched on were becoming coated with soot. Any fruit or vegetable you can buy at the store is a product of evolution guided by humans. There are endless verifiable and repeatable examples.

    Some people follow religions whose interpretations or doctrines require the earth to be extremely young. Otherwise, the internal logic of their beliefs breaks down. Without an Adam and Eve, for example, there would be no original sin, and there would be no need for Christ to redeem the sins we are born with and no need for his supposed death and resurrection. The theory of evolution directly refutes the possibility of an Adam and Eve. And so we see this cottage industry of apologetics to deny, miseducate, obfuscate, and selectively cherry pick information about evolution. One example is the "microevolution" and "macroevolution" distinction, which is meaningless to biologists because it's all the same evolution.
     
    #3 AlexanderG, Jul 18, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2021
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  4. Xavier Graham SA

    Xavier Graham SA God is Love is love is love. OM, AV KAH AHH!

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    I disagree with this just because of my own views. I think humanity is devolving, and we have been since Adam and Eve.
     
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  5. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Silent Generation - so don't expect much
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    Winner frub as in - Am I getting something wrong here? I’m no scientist. :oops:
     
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  6. Martin

    Martin Spam, wonderful spam!

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    You could say selective breeding is "forced" evolution.
     
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  7. Viker

    Viker Filia Diaboli, in a shroud of metaphor and mystery

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    You're describing the result of an arbitrary selective breeding practice. Not evolution, so to speak.
     
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  8. Viker

    Viker Filia Diaboli, in a shroud of metaphor and mystery

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    Sort of, I suppose. :p
     
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  9. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Grēne Mann
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    I didn't know about the pug thing. Interesting! :D We can trace this stuff via genetics, though.

    Reminds me of this painting I saw of a watermelon done in the 17th century.

    [​IMG]

    Look at how weird the flesh looks, and look at the watermelon's size in relation to that pear next to it. Here's another painting by another artist.

    [​IMG]

    Watermelon - Wikipedia

    This isn't the only way we can tell selective breeding changes a species, just look at the banana too.



    The problem with this video, though, is that the host fails to realize that modern bananas came about through selective breeding (by humans, for humans). Here's what the wild banana looks like.

    [​IMG]

    You know corn on the cob? Here's corn's cultivation throughout time.

    [​IMG]

    No one can really deny that when certain conditions are met, or when certain pressures are present, massive changes completely overhaul the way organisms can work. We've been doing it for thousands of years. Even those who deny evolution on a grand scale can admit that changes do happen in this way (albeit, in a much more limited way than what the science might suggest).
     
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  10. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Yes and no. This was the result of human breeding from selected natural variants, rather than natural selection.

    I suspect that natural selection, if these dogs were wild, would soon stamp out these versions with no nose that can barely breathe.

    But if you want an example of evolution in action, just look at the variants of the Covid virus. Variants that are more infectious take over from those that are less so, because they reproduce more successfully.
     
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  11. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Yes selective breeding to bring out desired traits is a human thing. Though in the wild evolution is being observed as you read this. Take for example the Langkawi bent-toed gecko (Cyrtodactylus macrotuberculatus)
     
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  12. AlexanderG

    AlexanderG Member

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    Right. All observable evidence and the theory of evolution directly refutes that notion. You probably believe that no new genetic information can be gained by a species or organism, even though we have countless observable examples of this happening all the time via multiple different known mutation mechanisms (eg. horizontal gene transfer, plasmids, VNTRs, transposons, retroviral insertions, gene duplications, polyploidy, etc etc). But your emotional comfort, your hope, meaning, and purpose, are built on a foundation of demonstrable false beliefs, and so you are compelled to continue to hold those beliefs.

    If I'm mischaracterizing your views then I apologize, but I've heard a lot of debates with a "humanity is devolving" debater on one side of the discussion.
     
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  13. Viker

    Viker Filia Diaboli, in a shroud of metaphor and mystery

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    What do you mean by "devolving"?
     
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  14. AlexanderG

    AlexanderG Member

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    Sort of. It's just evolution. Evolution by natural selection means the features of the natural environment are imposing certain selective pressure on a species population, whereas selective breeding is humans imposing certain selective pressures.

    The environment could select for a long fluffy coat of fur because the average local temperature is cold. A human could select for long fluffy fur because they think it's cute. It's the same evolution.
     
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  15. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Grēne Mann
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    What does "devolving" look like in the context of the theory of evolution? I'm not sure such a thing can even exist. o_O

    All change over time is evolution. What changes do you think are happening, though, and what examples do you present to come to that conclusion?
     
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  16. Viker

    Viker Filia Diaboli, in a shroud of metaphor and mystery

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    I'm not going to speak for him.

    But many people think evolution means getting better. So I guess devolving may mean getting worse. IDK really :shrug:
     
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  17. AlexanderG

    AlexanderG Member

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    The idea of "devolution" is incoherent and not a thing in the actual theory of evolution. You're right that any change over time is just evolution. We can find populations of eyeless crabs around hydrothermal vents, which have evolved to lose their eyes over many generations of living in absolute darkness.

    Their body no longer has to spend energy on useless organs, and any diseases related to eyes are no longer an issue. This is an adaptive trait that has given them an advantage in their environment; they are now better suited to thrive based on the features of their natural surroundings. A similar example is whales evolving to lose their back legs, leaving only a tiny vestigial pelvis inside their streamlined body.
     
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  18. Xavier Graham SA

    Xavier Graham SA God is Love is love is love. OM, AV KAH AHH!

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    I suppose what I’m talking about is selective breeding. I have a very specific belief system (well we all do), but anarchism is central to what I believe. I believe the government is selectively breeding us to reduce our brain capacity, like pugs.
     
  19. Viker

    Viker Filia Diaboli, in a shroud of metaphor and mystery

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    Interesting.
     
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  20. Xavier Graham SA

    Xavier Graham SA God is Love is love is love. OM, AV KAH AHH!

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    I would say my views are most accurately mischaracterized as “Last Thursdayism”. I believe in YEC, but also believe that God simply placed already fully evolved species on an aged earth.
     
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