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Evolution & Creationism are both Faith & Supernatural based

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
First of all: evolution is science, which means it doesn't require faith nore does it require any supernatural factors.

To illustrate this. Answer this question Evolutionist, Darwin or Theistic, Do you believe in eternal existence?

I have no reason to.

We know Creationist do already due to belief in eternal God, Father, Son, & Holy Spirit.

Yes. Blind faith in supernatural entities.
None of which is invoked in the science of biological evolution.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
If an evolutionist doesn't believe in eternal existence. They have a huge problem. They have to explain the origin of the original energy w/o using Faith or Supernatural & it coming into existence from nothing.

Euh....
So you think you are somehow exempt of having to explain origins? Just because you believe in "eternal existance" (whatever that means), you feel like you are absolved of your burden of proof? Seriously?


See that takes both Faith & Supernatural.

Only if you make up stuff that requires faith and the supernatural.
Like creationists do.


Science law says something can't come from nothing!

Actually, there is no law saying any such thing.

Again that proves its using Faith & Supernatural.

Actually, it only proves that you have no clue what you are talking about...

Like, for example, the fact that you don't seem to comprehend that evolution theory only deals with the diversity of species and not at all with origins of life - let alone COSMIC origins of the universe itself.

Now if they believe in eternal existence.

Who's "they"? People who accept 21st century biology?


Then what is the difference between them & creationist & believing in an eternal God.

"They" accept the science and evidence of biology concerning matters of evolution theory.
Creationists don't.

Both are using Faith & Supernatural to explain eternal existence whether it be energy or God.

No. Science doesn't include supernatural shenannigans and doesn't need faith as it uses evidence instead.


So then the question becomes Why do they then have such a problem believing in an eternal existent God & their eternal existent energy or Faith or Supernatural that produced that energy from nothing.

Because there is no evidence of any such thing, while there are mountains of evidence in support of evolution theory (which, again, doesn't deal with origins at all).

They both come from the same place no matter how or where you cut it.

All of it comes from Faith & Supernatural ultimate Base from the start!

No.

I hope I explained this well enough.

You did a very good job of showing how you don't comprehend this subject.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
No I have not. See evolution uses the Big Bang as part of the start to begin teaching ORIGINS.

It does not.
Big Bang theory could be completely refuted tomorrow and it wouldn't have any impact on the robustness and accuracy of evolution theory AT ALL. Evolution theory would remain completely unaffected.

As a matter of fact, big bang theory was developed more then a century AFTER evolution theory was already long accepted by consensus. You seem very confused.

You can't just ignore that & pick & choose where else you want to start

You can't just pretend to understand the science and then start arguing against it. If your initial understanding if fundamentally flawed, then so will your resulting argument be.

The fact is that you got your scopes all messed up.
Evolution theory is a model that explains the diversity of biological organisms on this planet. How diversity came about. It has literally NOTHING to do with the origins of life, the origins of solar systems, the origins of the universe,.... One is biology and the other is cosmology.

Evolution was known before big bang theory.
If tomorrow big bang theory is thoroughly refuted, then evolution theory remains completely unaffected.
If tomorrow you prove beyond a shred of doubt that Jesus created first life, even then evolution theory remains completely unaffected.

Evolution deals with the development of life on this planet AFTER it originated.
And that's it.


Esp true for pure atheistic evolutionist

There is no such thing, just like there is no "atheistic gravity" or "atheistic atoms" or "atheistic plate tectonics" or "atheistic electro magnetism" or "atheistic germs" or what-have-you.

I'm showing that that is false.

No. You are CLAIMING that that is false. And "that" is also nothing but a huge strawman.


Origins starts by Faith & Supernatural

Only if you makes stuff up that requires both.
You have yet to demonstrate that anyone besides theists does this. Just claiming it, will not do.

with atheistic evolution by how they teach origins starting with Big Bang.

It's also funny, because Big Bang theory was actually developed by a cosmologist who was also a catholic priest.... :rolleyes:

So let's assume the Big Bang was the start

It's not, by the way.... much like evolution theory, big bang theory actually is more about the development of the early universe then it is about its origins. The origins of the universe would rather be whatever it was that triggered the big bang. Which at this point is utterly unknown.

Now Creationist & Theistic can use Faith & Supernatural to explain God used His guiding hand to set the heavens in the precision we see in the heavens that are so fine tuned that if one of so many measurements of any kind were off any life couldn't exist on this planet.

Yes, that's the "making up stuff that requires both" thingy I was pointing out earlier...
That is indeed what creationists do: they make stuff up, call it "supernatural" and then pretend as if that absolves them from their burden of proof. Who needs proof when you have "faith", right? :rolleyes:

Meanwhile, honest people that care about being justified in their claims and beliefs, will simply say that they don't know what kickstarted the big bang, as it is currently unknown.

It's called intellectual honesty.

Yet for atheist evolutionist They don't have the option of Faith or Supernatural as Atheist. So they are in a bind. They have to "BELIEVE" W/O "FAITH or " SUPERNATURAL" & any scientific experiment that proves any explosion of Energy creates precision & order!!

1. I don't have to "believe" anything.
2. the big bang describes an expansion of space-time, not an explosion. An explosion is the result of chemicals reacting. That's not what the big bang is.


The problem is real science has experimental proofs to validate theories or hypothesis

Both big bang theory as well as evolution theory are very validated theories that are very very testable and independently verifiable. That you are ignorant about it, really is not an argument.


Not one has ever validated that one

The predictions of big bang cosmology have been validated in reality and experiments to an absurdly accurate degree. And the same goes for evolution.

The only validation you have for your creation nonsense is "The bible says it, I believe it, that settles it".

So atheistic evolutionist MUST USE FAITH & SUPERNATURAL AGAINST THEIR WILL to have to BIG BANG create the heavens in such precise order so that life could exist on earth.

Teleological fallacy.

We haven't gotten to the other parts evolution has to use Faith & Supernatural

Perhaps it's best that you postpone that part until you actually inform yourself a bit on the basics of said theory, or this will not end well.

for evolution because for it to occur it actually violates the very laws of science & nature that evolution itself had to create since it is credited with creating everything.

See? You'll end up saying ignorant stuff like that. What's next? Some rant about the 2nd law of thermodynamics? :rolleyes:

Due to my being on disability I can hardly sit at my computer to do this as it puts my back & me in excruciating pain

Sounds like your body isn't all that finetuned. :p

(sorry, couldn't help myself.... I off course am sorry that you have to deal with that)
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
So if Big Bang & Evolution isn't Faith based. Then tell me where by proof w/o FAITH or Supernatural where energy first originated.

Neither big bang theory nore evolution theory deal with the origins of energy.

Again we are discussing ORIGINS

Are we?
Then what are you doing obsessing over big bang and evolution theory? Because neither of them address the origins you speak of.


WE have to start at the very beginnings of everything to get to our origins otherwise we can't get to us.

False.
Life exists and we can study it - no matter how our universe (or indeed life itself) got started.

Furthermore, with Big Bang where did the material come from that formed the planet's, stars etc. Was it already existent prior to BIG BANG? How did it get created?

The material that formed our solar system, and ultimately our bodies, were crafted inside the cores of massive stars and during supernova's for the heavier elements.

[Science law as mentioned says something can't come from nothing

There is no such law.

Yet atheistic have to explain that w/o use of Faith & Supernatural & by purely Natural methods which isn't possible.

The words "explain" and "faith" are mutually exclusive.
"faith" is what you need when you don't have evidence.
Proposed "explanations" without evidence, are just bare claims.

An explanation, is not something that requires faith.
An explanation, is something that actually explains.

Then let's go further. You have to go from inanimate objects of planets etc to chemicals etc. So how do you go to that w/o using Faith & Supernatural since there isn't one science experiment that can prove you can create chemicals from inanimate objects.

?????

Chemicals are just molecules, dude.
What do you think "inanimate objects" are made off?

Much less that it could occur on its own by random.

Chemistry / chemical reactions happen quite happily spontanously.
There're no invisible entities tinkering with the atoms/molecules to make them bond into other kind of molecules.

Then you have the exact chemicals created in the exact formula to create life by Random w/o using Faith & Supernatural. They just miraculously get together & form life despite there has never been a science experiment, which BTW uses Intelligent Design of humans, using right chemical mixture already known & form life.

This is why abiogenesis research is ongoing.
Sounds like you are just complaining that science hasn't figured out everything about anything.
And for some reason, you additionally like to pretend that because science doesn't (yet) have an answer, therefor your random religious faith based supernatural claims are somehow valid.

That is off course ridiculous.

Much less it has to happen by Random w/o any Intelligence guiding the science lab experiment.

Do you know what "controlled conditions" are?
When I build a freezer and water turns into ice inside of it, does that then mean that somebody "intelligently designed" the north pole?

You make zero sense, all the way through.
It seems you haven't thought about any of this properly at all.

Each simple cell is anything but simple

Each simple cell that you can observe today, is also the result of at least 3.8 billion years of evolution.


It's made up of the most complex computer program directing it

DNA is a molecule - not a "program", much less a "computer program".

that even today man can't come close to matching , DNA, RNA.

There's many things that our technology isn't capable off. We can't create hurricans for example either. So what?

Plus every computer program known to man was written by Intelligent Designer.

Computer programs, yes. DNA is a molecule though.

So Again you have to believe by Faith & Supernatural that the DNA, RNA formed by Random trial & error despite no proof that's remotely possible.

Only if you assume to many many false and invalid definitions and premises you have laid down here.

Have you noticed that science processes like photosynthesis, & all the others science processes can give each step in order & describe each one in detail.

Euh...... photosynthesis is anything but convered in "step by step" detail. If science would have unraveled the mechanics of photosynthesis, then the human energy crisis would have been solved already.
But it isn't, because it's not.

Yet evolution can't even give you the first step

The first step of evolution, is not the origins of life.
Evolution starts with already existing life.

Stop beating that dead horse.

Heck it can't tell you what the Finch or Beetle became. They never became a higher order species non Finch non Beetle.

:rolleyes:

If finches would become non-finches, then evolution theory would be falsified.

I always have to chuckle when I see creationists point out that we have never observed a certain something that they feel would be required for evolution to be accurate - while in reality if we would actually observe that, evolution would be false!

Evolution is full of innuendo & just so stories & that's per quotes of key evolutionist..

No.

Evolution is supported by a ridiculous amount of independent and convergent lines of evidence. Some of which include comparative anatomy, comparative genomics, the genetic record, the fossile record, biogeopraphy, etc etc etc.

Seriously.... I really really advice you to inform yourself before moving forward with this topic.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Evolution teaches the Finch made small changes & it made changes in beak size. Yet it still was a Finch Correct?

If it would turn into a non-finch, evolution theory would be falsified.


But it is used as a key example for evolution despite what I just said correct?

It's not.
At best, you've been swallowing creationist propaganda wich just fed you lies and misinformation.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Abogenesis itself violates the law of science & Nature.

It does? Which ones, specifically, and how, exactly?
And how come the scientific community doesn't seem to be aware of this? :rolleyes:


That forces evolutionist to absolutely use FAITH & SUPERNATURAL for evolution to even become possible

Life could have magical or supernatural origins, and it wouldn't affect evolution theory at all.
Because evolution deals with the development of life after life already exists - no matter how it originated.


If you can't admit that then you really have a problem. You've really proven the quotes I gave to be true. To be truly scientific you'd have to prove that LIFE can come from NON LIFE. That is one of the prominent Laws of Science that is known that CANT HAPPEN. It's never been done in science lab experiment. It's just an example of another JUST SO STORY done W/O DEMONSTRATION & TOLERANCE OF SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY for the ATHEISTIC AGENDA.

Literally everything that is currently known in science, was unknown at some point.
You sound like someone saying 400 years ago that it is "scientifically impossible" to have a machine that weighs multiple tons to fly through the air.

Here's the thing: you don't know what is possible or impossible in advance.
No matter how much you like to pretend otherwise.

That is an AUTOMATIC NON STARTER for evolution even though you cant admit it.

One more time: it matters not to evolution theory how life originated.
Be it a natural process or done by extra-dimensional aliens, harry potter magic, undetectable 7-headed dragons or your particular god of choice. It doesn't matter. Life demonstrably evolves.

You're so tied to the theory due to what I've quoted & emotional reasons sadly YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH. I truly hate that for your sake. Think for yourself not like they taught you to & what they hid from you.

Says the guy who's so drowning in creationistic dogma that he keeps repeating the same falsehoods even after people have already corrected them.

I have a challenge that would give you or anyone the Nobel Award for Science & riches untold. Prove Life can come from NON LIFE.

Abiogenesis researchers are looking into it.
What are creationists doing, aside from standing on the sidelines waving their bibles and pretending to know the answers before even asking the proper questions?


Look at all the Intelligent Design you have today at your finger tips.

What are you talking about?

Believe me if possible it would have already been done & many times over.

You have given exactly zero reasons to "just believe you" and MANY reasons to completely dissmiss everything you say, as it's the same old creationist propaganda, PRATTs and fallacies we've heared countless times before.

And as a general rule, whenever someone says concerning a scientific topic "just believe me" - then that's a very good reason not to believe, because it means there is no evidence at all... otherwise, you'ld just share the evidence instead of demanding "belief".

I don't even have to critically analyze Natural Selection to show you it's flaws.

Everything you've said about it so far only demonstrates that you barely grasp what natural selection is all about.

This seems like having mother nature as if it actually had a thinking reasoning brain carving a statue with use of weather, wind, erosion etc. Then mother nature deciding it wanted to turn it into a living being.

See? Like that. If you think that is even remotely close to an appropriate description of natural selection, I can only laugh out loud, I'm sorry to say.

They nor you will admit it despite its truth.

I will admit that you have no clue what you are talking about, as every post you make on the topic so painfully demonstrates.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
When teaching science which leads to mankind's ORIGINS it always starts with Big Bang. So therefore I start from the very start to show the problems & hypocrisy. I have so much more. Yet as is usual you can't handle going to the very beginning & getting the holes exposed from the start. You want to pick & choose where you start. That's incomplete to me when ultimately it's about mankind's Origins.

No. We just understand the concept of "scope".

The best example I can give you to illustrate it is simply that evolution theory was known long before big bang cosmology. The introduction of big bang cosmology had exactly zero effect on matters of biological evolution. If tomorrow big bang cosmology is shown false, then it again will have exactly zero effect on matters of biological evolution.

Because no matter how the universe originated... life is what it is and the history of life on our planet remains unchanged.

Your entire case makes no sense at all.
 
So I'm hearing about all these evolutionary "theories" & "probabilities" yet they aren't proven but taught as FACT!

So that is a flat out lie!!

Then they won't allow any problems with the theory, even from Darwin's own book to be discussed. That's CENSORSHIP due to Agenda not science.

Then I read the most ridiculous example of non life producing life. Using becoming pregnant. Surely you're trolling. A living woman has living in her womb what matches up with living sperm to form living cells that as all life does & develops through its various stages to become complete. Which BTW please explain how evolution explains w/o FAITH & Supernatural a caterpillar becoming a butterfly. As a caterpillar it was living fine. It didn't need to change to live. Worms etc live just fine. Somehow someway w/o Intelligent Design nature decides it needs to form a butterfly. Yet it was living fine.

So go ahead & use your brain, Intelligence, & explain what caused the need for butterfly. It's beautiful. Yet both still are vulnerable to predators. So that didn't solve the problem. With your brain. Come up with the random trial & error steps you'd use to evolve to a butterfly. Realizing you don't know the endgame like an Engineer does with his brain. So each small step now makes it less fit for survival until it's complete. Plus, w/o knowing the endgame, it doesn't know what small steps it needs to keep or discard that will be needed at the end when finished. All that time nature is selecting against it due to it being unfit because it's not finished & Heck doesn't even know where it's going like an Engineer does.

I've read so much in textbooks. They use so many words like could, might, over time so on & so forth w/o any specifics with actual evolutionary steps.

You do get specifics on known science processes that have been observed & they repeat themselves over & over.

I know you won't read anything to upset your bias. But in Dr Jonathan Wells book "Icons of Evolution". He has a Dr in molecular & cell biology from Cal Berkley.

These are the Icons he discusses.
Miller-Urey experiment. 4(D) 6(F)
Darwin's tree of life. 2(D) 8(F)
Vertebrate limb homology 7(D) 3(F)
Haeckels embryos. 2(D) 8(F)
Archaeopteryx. 1(B) 1(C)4(D)4(F)
Peppered Moths. 1(X)1(N/A)2(D)6(F)
Darwin's Finches. 1(X)4(D)5(F)

X no image in book but used same wrong verbiage N/A not in book

He rated the accuracy of 10 textbooks in how they taught & text used & described each one. I've put the rating overall for each one for the 10 books beside each. If this doesn't disturb you & make you realize why the quotes I gave are accurate. You are burying your head in the sand deliberately. That's sad.

Let me explain how I do my research besides my own reading. First thing I do is look for authors that once had the opposite opinion & changed. I want to know what they found out or what happened to cause such a dramatic change in opinion. I do that for both sides.
It gives me a better understanding of the issue(s) & what is influencing opinions.

Then I look for specific topics that have stated opposing views. I read the explanation fully of why they explain that belief. Then I look specifically for answers or rebuttals to said opinions for both sides & go further if their is a debate or further exchange & if a number of them.

Then I analyze how & what they've said & how they've handled rebuttals etc.

As a big sports fan. I do this on controversial calls by officials too. So many times we fans tend to blame officials & it's out of our own bias. So I will watch the replay(s) & then look at it as if I was a fan of the other team. I try to be as objective as possible when doing that. As former athlete & coach myself I understand it better than most. Amazingly many times when I do that. My viewpoint changes. So what I thought was a bad call. I now see how the official could have called that & I no longer have a complaint despite by bias.

That's how I approach this issue, politics & many issues. I have to do thorough research both ways or my bias will likely influence me more than my wanting to be objective.

What I've found in this debate however. This follows Dr. Mano Singhams article in Physics Today June of 2000. He explained how & why he teaches using propaganda & brainwashing & additionally sets it up to brainwash his students from ever giving the other point of view any value. That's what brainwashing is. Silence opposing view. What fake news does & what evolutionist have admitted to but you refuse to acknowledge. That's proof of how successful they've been.

Fortunately when the 2 Dr Engineer challenged me. We set up ground rules right at the start to alleviate those problems. He's the only person so far that's ever been willing to do that. It forced as much as possible true academic honesty despite bias.

How many on here have actually studied this subject the way I have & do when studying opposing points of view? If you haven't then honestly you haven't done an academically honest research of this subject.

You just quote the same old talking points you've been taught to say by teachers such as Dr Singham explained. It's sad but the norm.

When will you be able to give me a logical common sense explanation showing, sans evolutions just so stories w/o actual demonstration, that functional design & computer program(s) can occur by them doing it themselves by themselves w/o any ID. Geez the example of non life to life was a complete dud.

Reminds me of a lady on Twitter one time DM me telling me to look at a You Tube video disproving ID. So I watched it. I tweeted her back & asked her. Are you sure you want to use that as your powerful argument against ID? She tried Yes absolutely! I then replied Thanks you just proved my point. The video was a guy using cars & all the different makes, models, colors etc showing variations & not ID.

I chuckled & said to her. You do realize that each car design used ID. Each car made used ID to design the factory on how to make those cars plus it still took INTELLIGENT workers to finish making the cars. Thanks for proving my point. You can't have Functional Design & all the programs within the cars without using ID.

She never replied back to me.

She was so programmed shed lost the ability to critically think & analyze herself. She was spouting What shed been taught to Think instead of being taught How to Think (Critically Analyze) Truly Sad.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
So I'm hearing about all these evolutionary "theories" & "probabilities" yet they aren't proven but taught as FACT!

Evolution is a fact. It demonstrably happens.
The theory of evolution is the model that explains how the fact of evolution works.
Just like gravitation theory is the model that explains how the fact of gravity occurs.

Learn2science

And read this page:

www.notjustatheory.com


Then they won't allow any problems with the theory, even from Darwin's own book to be discussed. That's CENSORSHIP due to Agenda not science.

More claims without evidence.

ps: before being able to properly recognise the problems in evolution, you'ld first have to actually comprehend at least the basics of evolution. So far, you've done nothing but demonstrate that you don't. Your lack of comprehension here is even so tragically poor that you demanded evidence in support of evolution that if such would exist, it would actually falsify evolution.

That's like saying that you'll believe that gravity is real when you witness a hammer randomly shoot into space instead of falling down to earth when dropped......

Which BTW please explain how evolution explains w/o FAITH & Supernatural a caterpillar becoming a butterfly. As a caterpillar it was living fine. It didn't need to change to live. Worms etc live just fine. Somehow someway w/o Intelligent Design nature decides it needs to form a butterfly. Yet it was living fine.

So go ahead & use your brain, Intelligence, & explain what caused the need for butterfly. It's beautiful. Yet both still are vulnerable to predators. So that didn't solve the problem. With your brain. Come up with the random trial & error steps you'd use to evolve to a butterfly. Realizing you don't know the endgame like an Engineer does with his brain. So each small step now makes it less fit for survival until it's complete. Plus, w/o knowing the endgame, it doesn't know what small steps it needs to keep or discard that will be needed at the end when finished. All that time nature is selecting against it due to it being unfit because it's not finished & Heck doesn't even know where it's going like an Engineer does.

http://www.biologiaevolutiva.org/xbelles/pdfs/2011-Belles-ELS.pdf

Now you explain why your god - oeps, I mean "intelligent designer" - created humans with a mouth too small to house all the teeth, which means that most humans need to have their wisdom teeth pulled because it hurts like hell and can eventually get infected to the point of killing you.

Or explain why bipedal humans have a spine that actually isn't really fit for bipedalism and literally looks like a spine that is meant to walk on all fours, but which had a big of tinkering giving it its S-shape, which literally is the cause of why 70% of people are confronted with lower back pains at some point in their lives?

And remember that the explanation needs to consist of a bit more then "because that's the way the designer dun it"

I've read so much in textbooks.

Really? Sounds more like you got all your information from creationist websites. And not even the mainstream ones, as most of them also warn you about not using a few specific arguments on the count of them being so demonstrably crazy bad- many of which you have used in this thread.

They use so many words like could, might, over time so on & so forth

Yes, it's called intellectual honesty and you'll find such qualifiers in any scientific paper in any field.
Religions should try it sometime, instead of only ever declaring to hold the truth and nothing but the truth... to pretend to KNOW all the answers before even properly formulating the questions.

You do get specifics on known science processes that have been observed & they repeat themselves over & over.

Well sorry, but you can't "repeat" processes that take millions of years to unfold.

I know you won't read anything to upset your bias.

Says the creationist who keeps ignoring everybody who's pointing out to him that he's arguing strawmen...


When will you be able to give me a logical common sense explanation showing, sans evolutions just so stories w/o actual demonstration, that functional design & computer program(s) can occur by them doing it themselves by themselves w/o any ID.


Biological evolution and biological systems have nothing in common with computer engineering and artificially created objects made from non-natural materials.

No matter how many times you wish to repeat it. No matter how many times you wish to pretend that ANALOGIES are the exact same thing as the real thing they are analogous too.



Geez the example of non life to life was a complete dud.

Not to mention, out of scope and yet another strawman.

Reminds me of a lady on Twitter one time DM me telling me to look at a You Tube video disproving ID. So I watched it. I tweeted her back & asked her. Are you sure you want to use that as your powerful argument against ID? She tried Yes absolutely! I then replied Thanks you just proved my point. The video was a guy using cars & all the different makes, models, colors etc showing variations & not ID.

I chuckled & said to her. You do realize that each car design used ID. Each car made used ID to design the factory on how to make those cars plus it still took INTELLIGENT workers to finish making the cars. Thanks for proving my point. You can't have Functional Design & all the programs within the cars without using ID.

Awesome.
Argument by anecdote.
Argument by youtube video.

ps: cars aren't biological organisms that reproduce with variation and compete with peers for limited resources while in a struggle for survival. Without those things, systems won't evolve. Whenever a system DOES reproduce with variation, IS in a struggle for survival and DOES compete with peers for limited resources, then evolution of those systems is a mathematical inevitability.

There's even a whole applied science and engineer principle based on just that fact. It's called Genetic Algortims which are extremely efficient tools in statistics, system design, system optimization, search heuristics and even in self-learning for AI engines.

These algoritms LITERALLY are the practical applications of the principles of biological evolution.
The very fact that these algorithms work, means that the process of biological evolution works.

She was so programmed shed lost the ability to critically think & analyze herself. She was spouting What shed been taught to Think instead of being taught How to Think (Critically Analyze) Truly Sad.


My irony meter just exploded.
 
Question. If I post any links that were written by former evolutionist will you read?

If not then you've proven exactly how successful Dr Singhams article described how & what they do to teach evolution is so successful & keeps you to only one side & never hearing the very real problems.

It's sad that I didn't realize at the time how rare the 2 Dr guy in Engineering that challenged me was. Despite his very activist bias & agenda. When we made the ground rules to hold both of us accountable to academic honesty. He actually did it. I've yet to find anyone else willing to do likewise..

Certainly not here.

Will anyone here do that? I'm in the car as my wife is driving & battery running out.

Any willing takers to academically honest discussion where both MUST read what other posts regardless & read rebuttals etc.
Then discuss. that point fully & then finish & go to next point. Yet both MUST agree it's finished & not just because of biased closed mind.

Any takers? Be awhile before I'm back. Throw out suggestions on first topic & then when we agree on topic we go forward.on agreed rules.
 

Astrophile

Active Member
For example. I had a man that had 2 Dr.s in Engineering challenge me to a debate back when I was healthy & could work out.

I have a BS & 2 Masters & all with academic honors plus I worked as a grad assistant on my first Masters in a science research project.

Anyway the man with 2 Dr.s heard me talking not only about Evolution but Jesus & Christianity. My story was told on New members today.

He was avid aggressive atheist. He'd debated many Christians before. I accepted his challenge. We set ground rules. We talked 1 hour 3 days a week for 1 hour plus as we walked side by side on a treadmill. Others actually started listening to us.

We talked for 2 yrs. We went slowly but step by step & each one thoroughly covered. Once a point was covered it was over & couldn't be used again.. I liked our method & process as nothing was missed & thoroughly covered.

I guess I was wrong to expect anything similar on here. Interesting that despite his very biased atheistic agenda. Key is he was at least an honest academic. Which despite people's bias few can get past their bias & be academically honest. He was. We agreed we both had to read what the other gave us to read despite how we might feel about that sources credibility.

If we really objected to the others material we had to prove why to the others acceptance or had to read it anyway.

At the end of 2 yrs we finished. Yes despite his bias & aggressive atheism. He was honest academic & admitted I'd proven all my points much to his surprise. Sadly it ended on a Friday & that weekend he died of a heart attack & I never saw him again.

He was by far the most thoroughly educated man I've ever met or known. I won his respect due to my knowledge you keep saying I don't have but do. We started at the very beginning too & slowly but surely moved through the science, theology, religion, is Bible inerrant is Jesus who He claimed etc.

Since your friend is dead, can you tell us his name and list the scientific papers that he had published?
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Sorry for the long delay getting back. As I've said I'm on disability. So I have rough days at times. As all of us married folks know. Sometimes our lovely spouses give us a list of honey does. Well with me that take pacing with recovery time. So despite my pain I'm trying to reply as is deserved.

I'll try to address certain things. Yet I feel like some of you say you do. It's pointless because of agenda not good answers.

Here's where I see that statement differently. Maybe instead of using Faith & Supernatural I should use logic & common sense vs illogical & non sense.

Yes if you look up laws of science you will see that biogenesis is proven because other than evolution using just so stories w/o actual science proven demonstration to prove otherwise. Life has never been proven to come from NON LIFE. Whether you admit it or not. Evolution depends on that occurring to be true. Why? In evolutions telling of Origins you start with Big Bang & inanimate objects. Then you get to chemicals in a primordial soup.

Problem with evolution is you want to dictate everything on your terms & pick where you start to avoid problem you can't handle. Honest academic doesn't allow that.

Science laws work by establishing by lab experiments or other experiments that when done continually they always produce the exact same result. Science learns by observation of that constant repetiveness it can count on. Then it can call it a law & then even go to describing each phase, in the order they occur & describe in detail each phase or stage & in the exact order. I could list numerous ones on here & we would all agree they are correct. Photosynthesis & on & on.

Ironically what I find is evolution tries to start from primordial soup & go forward with evolution to mankind. Yet even though you refuse to acknowledge the link. In HS & University textbooks I've bought & read. Teaching starts from Big Bang to primordial soup to life to life from evolution through stages to mankind. Plus Darwin's "Origins" which is the start of the playbook per se although I've already explained why it's a problem & evolutionist conveniently ignore. Same as the article I quoted validated.

Despite the excruiting pain I find myself in tonight. After 21+ surgeries due to old football surgeries starting in 1970 & 3 non at fault car wrecks finally putting me on permanent disability & limits, esp due to pain magmt that I must endure daily. I read constantly & have a BS & 2 Masters all with academic honors. So despite the attacks on my knowledge & research work. I'm not uneducated nor uninformed as the 2 Dr man I worked out with clearly found out much to his surprise after his debate challenge.

Besides life coming from NON LIFE which isn't possible & can't nor hasn't been done in a lab. If it was possible & had been it would be all over the media & shown & done in labs in science classes everywhere. Evolution infers it by just so stories etc as I've said.

I'm curious have any of you ever actually read the counter points by scientist? I mean esp those that were as is only possible today. Taught to be evolutionist but later became non evolutionist. I'm not talking about becoming Christian. I'm just saying they changed due to bad science of evolution. Thus Sciencist Dissent List. This Dr. Jonathan Wells "Icons of Evolutions" exposing of the major tenets used to teach evolution are all fraud & not only that. There has been plenty of time to correct the textbooks but they won't due to the agenda

I find it incredibly sad that the scopes trial was to teach both. Not religion but the good & bad of each side. Let the students decide. Don't brainwash by one side teaching due to agenda. As my quotes show.

Common sense is shown that in a trial you get to see both sides. If you didn't get to see but one side then the decision would always be one way for the side presented.

Nowadays the advancement in science, which has really caused 1000+ to sign Scientist Dissent List plus to want both sides, ie problems with evolution shown & there are many.

Isn't it interesting that there are so many theories in evolution & offshoot theories. Plus every time another problem is exposed. Evolutions answer is just add more time. That's funny. As if time is a vehicle of evolutionary change. Time is nothing more than a measuring device.


Common sense shows us in every case that it takes Intelligence to have a Functional Design. It's not just appearance because it's FUNCTIONAL. Same with computer programming. DNA/RNA is still by far the most complex program that makes life work & man can't match it much less beat it.

Ironically it took lots of INTELLIGENCE to discover it. Yet evolution wants to sell me that a non functioning brain of nature did it.

Dawkins writes a book called The Blind. Watchmaker. Wow was that funny. It was so obvious what he avoided. See a blind man could in fact design a watch due to having a brain. He could conceptualize it & the pieces needed & how the pieces needed to fit together & work independently & cooperately together to make a watch that worked. What couldn't happen is a baby, mentally handicapped etc person that has no thinking, reasoning, conceptual etc ability. Dawkins intentionally avoids the obvious.

That's what Fred Hoyle recognizes & admits but you guys refuse to admit that common sense & use non sense & illogical
thinking to defend what can't be defended.

There is so much more. But until you're willing to even admit these are real issues & problems & even moreso actually read the studies & points on non evolutionist.

Until someone can scientifically show me how life comes from non life & computer program can write itself by itself much less show me the logic. I've yet to have an Engineer, even one with 2 Dr degrees explain or show me how Functional Design can occur by itself on its own w/o Intelligence. Then add Computer Programming which Engineer well aware of & used plus all that I know. Not one has even come close to being able to do so.

Go ahead & give your best shot.

May be awhile before I'm back. I'm in bad pain & have lots to do tomorrow which will put me in pain too. But I shall return & see if you can do academically with common sense & logic what my Engineer with 2 Dr degrees couldn't. I doubt it. You'll have to use Faith & Supernatural which evolution doesn't allow and common sense & logic sure doesn't allow it.
Please, if for no other reason than simple human kindness, stop this. You do not know what you are talking about. You have no knowledge of any science other than what you have picked up from web sources with big agendas and also no knowledge of science. You have no power of reasoned argument, and you haven't even made it clear (to me at least) what it is that you are trying to show...if anything.

As a kindness to others, I think you would do well to just let it go...
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
Please, if for no other reason than simple human kindness, stop this. You do not know what you are talking about. You have no knowledge of any science other than what you have picked up from web sources with big agendas and also no knowledge of science. You have no power of reasoned argument, and you haven't even made it clear (to me at least) what it is that you are trying to show...if anything.

As a kindness to others, I think you would do well to just let it go...
I agree. He should just stop. He will not. But he should. What he posts amounts to the slaughter of the intellect.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
I threw this together a little while ago as a personal exercise and for fun. If you have time, look it over. I would be interested in valid criticism so that I can improve it. I do not expect any creationist to give it any thought or learn something from it.



The author of this thread does not understand science. He has no intention to use science or the products of science in any substantive or honest way. He does not read what others have to say and properly address those comments, nor does he answer questions put to him. All of this, while enlisting well-worn, and actual propaganda techniques to expound his belief system and deny science. Since the author of the OP does not take this seriously, I thought it might be interesting to review the article by Mano Singham that has previously been mentioned and bandied about as if it were some magic scepter casting a charm of 'silencio' on the readers here.


Mano Singham is a theoretical physicist and educator, formerly the Director of the University Center for Innovation in Teaching and Education (UCITE) at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio and now retired (2019a, 2019b). The article of note is from the June, issue of Physics Today (2000) and is entitled "Teaching and Propaganda". For those interested, a pdf copy can be obtained at the following address https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1063/1.1306373.


For some time, creationists have made a number of false claims about this article and what it means. It is an opinion piece by the author about his own reflections and experiences with the teaching of science and the limitations of teaching introductory science to young college students. It is not an article about the teaching of evolution specifically as has been erroneously claimed by others elsewhere on this thread. In the article, Dr. Singham refers to his own experiences in teaching physics, the subject of his specialty, and how that relates to the teaching of science in general.


In Dr. Singham's opinion, as an educator, it is his job to educate students so that they are well versed in the technical aspects of physics or textbook physics, or textbook science, if you will. Textbook science is an edited, truncated, and collated version of the prior work and established knowledge of a particular field of science that has accumulated to the point the textbooks were published. It is all the significant--and some trivial--rote facts, history, processes and theories that students are expected to learn in order to be sufficiently educated technically. It is intended to establish a basis and a sound general background in what is known about a particular subject of science.


In Dr. Singham's opinion, the volume of information and the time available to teach do not allow educators the ability to cover, discuss and debate every aspect of a subject like physics or any science, with full justice. Where alternative or competing theories exist, there is little or no time to discuss them and weigh them in comparison to the more widely accepted theories of a field. He compares modern necessity of education to how people are indoctrinated with propaganda. He is not saying that the information provided to students is lies or propaganda, but is opining the similarity that modern science education must, at times, parallel the techniques of the propagandist. Information is provided and the expectation is that it will be absorbed without question to be returned in the form of answers on tests and review papers. It is very much similar--though not the same--as a religious propagandist, spewing out his opinions and assertions with the expectation that his followers will repeat it all back as mantras and chants without thought, question or critical review. It is not quite that bad, but the parallel is still there and important to acknowledge and consider. As Dr. Singham notes in the article, it is not just the goal of education to produce students that do well on tests, but to encourage them to review all the available data, hypotheses and theories, critically weigh them and come to their own conclusions. His concern is that modern science education is not fulfilling that later roll, or not well enough, at any rate.


I would like to reiterate, that at no point does he make claims about the teaching of evolution or that what is being taught in science is lies that are driven by some unscientific political or ideological agenda. He is voicing his concerns regarding his view that some of the techniques that science educators are, by circumstance, left to use, amount to turning out ideologues rather than students prepared to be skeptics. He does allude to the fact that a deeper, more active process does occur later in the educational process as students advance and have amassed a large enough knowledge base. However, this may continue to be a genuine problem, even among science majors, but certainly for students that are not science majors. Students that may later dismiss valid knowledge when challenged by concepts outside the scope of their initial education in a subject. It appears to be a legitimate concern that could be said of any introductory science course. In my opinion it is the real core and value of the article and the actual point that is worth further discussion. As evidence against science, science education and the theory of evolution, it is a dead end fantasy. A desperate grasp by a creationist for any straw that looks remotely promising.


What is important in the context of the science versus religion debate is that this article has been hijacked by creationists who have turned it into a straw man that they use to establish a number of false claims. They associate Dr. Singham's use of propaganda to mean that students in science classes are taught lies. That they are not allowed to think freely or explore. They extend this to the idea that students are never taught alternative explanations or those explanations are not given proper consideration during the course of education. While it is true that introductory courses are constrained by the sheer volume of material and by the time required to teach even a portion of it with greater depth, and reliance must be placed on the unquestioned absorption of details, this does not make those details false. Creationists and intelligent design advocates twist the intent of this article and focus on the opinion that not enough time is devoted to comparing and contrasting theories outside of the most widely accepted in order to assert that the system is stacked against them. That some conspiracy exists in education to prevent a serious review of creationist or intelligent design ideas. They are establishing a straw man mechanism in order to claim their views are prevented from receiving their fair due.


Of course, none of this is true. As a biologist, I know that there have been competing theories to evolution within science and that these are well known and often referred to, even in recent work. I was introduced to many of these during the course of my own education and through my own initiative--inspired by the education I received--in a deeper exploration of evolution and the theory of evolution. The hopeful monster hypothesis, Goldschmidt (1940) or the punctuated equilibrium of Eldredge and Gould (1972) are examples that are indeed a part of specialized science education. While introductory students may only receive a brief mention of them, without time to learn and evaluate them objectively, the access and engagement remains freely available as general knowledge increases and students advance.


What creationists are trying to overcome is not a problem with our education system or a fair comparison of intelligent design with theories of biology, but the fact that intelligent design is simply not a scientific theory and not part of science. The core structure of intelligent design is based upon belief and not formulated on empirical observation and reasoned logic, so no reasonable comparison as an alternative or competing theory can be made in science. For example, irreducible complexity cannot be demonstrated in the lab or the field and has been refuted in court by one of the very examples that was used to uphold it. It fell into its own mousetrap.


Dr. Singham is very clear on his own thoughts about intelligent design and whether it is science. In further writing (2002) he lists two criteria that must be met in order for a theory to be scientific. The first is that a scientific theory must be naturalistic and seek physical explanations for the observations that scientists make. Theories cannot appeal to beliefs and miracles that have no physical basis and entirely subjective in nature. The second criteria is that a theory must be predictive. Dr. Singham points out that intelligent design cannot satisfy either of these two criteria and fails in its consideration as science. Therefore, there is no reason to teach it alongside actual theories of science. In that regard, there is no failure of education. The only failure is in the duplicitous moves by creationists to interject their personal religious beliefs into the classroom and supplant science with religion.



References


Eldredge, Niles & Stephen J. Gould. 1972. Punctuated equilibria: an alternative to phyletic gradualism. In: pp. 82-115. T.J.M. Schopf, ed., Models in Paleobiology. San Francisco: Freeman Cooper.

Goldschmitdt, Richard B. 1940. The material basis of evolution. New Haven CT: Yale Univ.Press.

Singham, Mano. 2000. Teaching and propaganda. Physics Today. 53(6): 54-55.

Singham, Mano. 2002. Philosophy is essential to the intelligent design debate. Physics Today. 55(6): 48-51.

Singham, Mano. 2019a. Biography on goodreads.com. Retrieved 04-23-2019. Mano Singham (Author of God vs. Darwin)

Singham, Mano. 2019b. Biography on freethoughtblogs.com. Retrieved 04-23-2019.
Mano Singham
 
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My quotes from his article are exactly correct. Plus you actually mislead in your appraisal of it. He compares two students. Ironically at the end he prefers the student that is the independent thinker.

But yes as all evolutionist do he incorrectly uses the tired argument of science vs religion when it's good vs bad science.

Again he does exactly as I quoted admits how he teaches & why. Sure he mentions once he has to cram a lot in. But he admits how he chooses what to "cram" in & how he filters it & how in the end he as a position as a teacher uses that position of authority to brainwash using propaganda. He rationalized it of course. But the key is what he admits to.

But you refuse to accept that truth due to your bias. You say I don't understand evolution because I don't niece it like you do. No I've analyzed it by critical analysis & the rest just took it & w/o question bought it & all their just so stories w/o true science demonstrations.

You still refuse to deal with the foundational issues it has & evolution has to prove is possible to be valid which it can't do. You haven't once tried to give an illustration to prove my point wrong on foundational premise issue. Same as Dawkins obviously avoiding the absolute requirement of INTELLIGENCE to design a watch even if blind.

What's really funny to me to is this. Billions of yrs is so critical for evolution. Yet with recent discoveries by secular scientists finding proof of young age they never expected with dinosaur fossil tissue etc. It couldn't last 65 million yrs yet there it was. But it didn't fit the narrative. So you have to destroy it. Despite finding more & more examples of it.

Plus Diamonds themselves are a great proof of young age. But evolutionist have to make up & distort anything & make it fit the narrative or just throw it out.

So many examples of that. But you won't read them even when secular scientist discover things. Then the cover up starts.

Plus you won't even take my challenge despite claiming you have all the proven truth on your side.

What are afraid of by having to read the other side? Truth? Creating doubts? Finding out you've been lied to & your ego can't handle it. You're proving all the signs of being brainwashed. I'm sorry for you on that. It's been a long hard evening.

You make so many assumptions & yet can't validate them & much evidence is against your uniformity that things have been the same all the time. No proof of that yet it's essential to give the time frame you need.

I'm still willing.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
I was so hoping I would get a few valid responses to this, but nothing yet. Perhaps tomorrow.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Question. If I post any links that were written by former evolutionist will you read?

My time is far to valuable to waste on creationist propaganda. I've read enough of it and frankly, it's been years since I've seen some creationist come up with something new. It's the same old PRATTs over and over again.
Some of these "arguments" have been around since the 50s. They weren't valid then, they aren't valid now.

So instead, I'ld require a proper scientific publication. But you don't have those, do you?
Because there aren't any. Because the opposition to the biological sciences are purely religious in nature. There is no valid science to argue against evolution theory.

You dismiss scientific theories with more and better science - not with religious shenannigans.

If not then you've proven exactly how successful Dr Singhams article described how & what they do to teach evolution is so successful & keeps you to only one side & never hearing the very real problems.

No. If this Dr Singhams, whoever that is, has an ounce of self-respect as a scientists, then he'ld be honest about it and acknowledge that only more and better science is capable of putting dents in evolution theory. Opinion pieces or commercial books - not so much.

And "more and better science" is published in proper peer reviewed scientific journals, not on creationist websites or whatever.


It's sad that I didn't realize at the time how rare the 2 Dr guy in Engineering that challenged me was. Despite his very activist bias & agenda. When we made the ground rules to hold both of us accountable to academic honesty. He actually did it. I've yet to find anyone else willing to do likewise..

Certainly not here.

Says the guy who wants to be able to use non-scientific sources to argue against scientific theories......

:rolleyes:

Any willing takers to academically honest discussion where both MUST read what other posts regardless & read rebuttals etc.
Then discuss. that point fully & then finish & go to next point. Yet both MUST agree it's finished & not just because of biased closed mind.

Any takers? Be awhile before I'm back. Throw out suggestions on first topic & then when we agree on topic we go forward.on agreed rules.

I have one request: that you demonstrate that you actually have a proper basic understanding of whatever topic you wish to discuss, because so far, just about EVERYTHING you said about evolution was either wrong or extremely wrong.
 
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